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Drew Manning
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Ever see the old footage of when Moving Pictures first came out? Tell me that camera tricks are not a part of magic and its history. Please.


I could, but I'd be telling a lie! Houdini was one of the first people to experiment and use CT in magic. Granted at that time, he didn't have a TV show, but he was one of the first film makers to use stop motion in his films before there were a lot of special effect techniques avaialble. Of course Danny, I suspect you already knew that Smile

As for the rest of your ideas, I agree. Magic is all about the end effect and pulling it off without getting busted. Don't get busted, and you're good to go.
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Dannydoyle
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I should state for the record, I am not a Criss Angel fan at all. Quite the opposite.

I feel his reliance on the methods is his downfall. But that does not make the methods themselves bad.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Drew Manning
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I don't know that they detect a difference in the two, but a lot of what CA presents doesn't appear to be something you can buy at a shop. Where as DB on the other hand does a lot of stuff that people would tend to look for in a shop.

I'm not a retailer, that's just my possible explanation for what you're descrbing.

Now, if you can hook me up with a car dealer that will let me drive a Viper off the lot, I'd surely buy that effect from you Smile
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice
Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime,
When you have a good martini time!

-The Reverend Horton Heat
artofillusion77
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I must be one of the few criss angel supporters on this board. Having known him personally before his fame (criss gave me guitar lessons at his brothers music shop "monster music") I can vouche for his character. Hes one of the nicest people I've ever come across. I personally believe his effects are tremendous. I think his showmanship is unparalled in magic today.

Does anybody think that criss's exposure does wonders for our art...From the beggining his goal was to bring magic into the mainstream. I believe it is getting there. I believe he does inspire people to perform magic and not only perform but inspires people to get through their day to day life. He does the stunts he does to make people who have a dick for a boss, or a tough neighborhood around them think if he can get through that then I can get through the difficult times I'm going through.

Has anyone on this board read criss's book? Now I know in the book he says repeatedly he does not use digital effects and camera tricks for his tricks. Most of you would say, "well of course he would say that hes not going to tell people he does." Well maybe it's just from knowing him personally but I believe he doesn't. I'm also going to apologize here for what I'm about to say but I believe there is a sense of jealousy amongst most people on this board. Try and tell me you wouldnt perform his effects or use stouges if you could be in his posistion.

I've also had the privillage of seeing his live show on broadway and every effect he does on his show he has the ability to perform live. Magician of the year three times. That has never been done before...give credit where credit is due.
artofillusion77
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And steve her name is joanne she's from garden city, she happens to be a nice lady but they are currently being divorced.
Drew Manning
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Art-

I agree with you. I think Criss is a very talented magician, despite what some people say about him.

His presentation style is very vivid and he does things that surprise you, even when you think you know what's about to happen. Think about his presetnation of swallowing needles...

I would in a heart beat do what he's done and is doing, although I think I'd have to hire a different image consultant. The pouty Goth look just doesn't work for me Smile
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice
Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime,
When you have a good martini time!

-The Reverend Horton Heat
Steve Fearson
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With all due respect... The idea that anyone who criticizes Criss is jealous is nonsense. If we all adopt that attitude, magic can just go down the proverbial sh**ter. I make fun of Criss because I find him a bit ridiculous. Beyond the poking fun.. I think his specials are terrible.

I had the opportunity to consult for Criss and flat turned it down. In return, he stole and sold the gimmick he was after. The people who have consulted for him have found out the hard way what exactly his character is. He expects that he can take everthing, permission or not.

I certainly don't want to get into any arguments, you see.. my opinion is my opinion and you are welcome to disagree. Magician of the year means nada. List some of the other "Magicians of the year" from the group you're referring to and you will see that most are not deserving of any such title.

Criss Angel had a fairly original stage show if you overlook the blatant Cirque ripoff. Also, you must think a sub trunk is original. His specials are terrible magic-wise. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

As I said in the previous post.. People like his specials, but they are not magic fans. They are jackass fans.

Criss Angel is rapidly gaining a very bad reputation among magicians, that is just a fact. And if anyone really believes he can perform the illusions that he does on the show live in person.. well.. I don't know what to say except that you are kidding yourself.

I don't want to argue so please don't insult those who would critique him by calling them "jealous". I have been offered my own specials at various times in more than one country but am not interested. But if I were to do a special, I would not use camera tricks. At least not blatantly to the point that it seems I take the audience for fools.

To assume someone is jealous of another simply because they have fame or success is misguided. I love Derren Brown. He is good. If the theory were true I would also hate him right? So would all the other "haters". But nobody hates Brown. Because he is good. Get it?

The fact is that some magic on tv is good and some is not. Criss Angel is not good in my opinion. That stems from knowing about magic and how it should be done. If I, or anyone on this board could do better is quite irrelevant.

Does anyone tell Roger Ebert to "go do better if you think you can?"

Steve

PS. If he has been cheating on his wife like the papers say, he's an all around turd and a bad role model for his audience, which is 10 to 16 year old boys.
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Dannydoyle
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On 2007-07-09 20:48, artofillusion77 wrote:
I must be one of the few criss angel supporters on this board. Having known him personally before his fame (criss gave me guitar lessons at his brothers music shop "monster music") I can vouche for his character. Hes one of the nicest people I've ever come across. I personally believe his effects are tremendous. I think his showmanship is unparalled in magic today.

Does anybody think that criss's exposure does wonders for our art...From the beggining his goal was to bring magic into the mainstream. I believe it is getting there. I believe he does inspire people to perform magic and not only perform but inspires people to get through their day to day life. He does the stunts he does to make people who have a dick for a boss, or a tough neighborhood around them think if he can get through that then I can get through the difficult times I'm going through.

Has anyone on this board read criss's book? Now I know in the book he says repeatedly he does not use digital effects and camera tricks for his tricks. Most of you would say, "well of course he would say that hes not going to tell people he does." Well maybe it's just from knowing him personally but I believe he doesn't. I'm also going to apologize here for what I'm about to say but I believe there is a sense of jealousy amongst most people on this board. Try and tell me you wouldnt perform his effects or use stouges if you could be in his posistion.

I've also had the privillage of seeing his live show on broadway and every effect he does on his show he has the ability to perform live. Magician of the year three times. That has never been done before...give credit where credit is due.


At least you have an impartial opinion LOL.

You gotta be kidding me. They gave him the 2008 magician of the year already! Come on man.

He has not brought the magic to the mainstream. A basic cable channel, with a goth theme, not really mainstream. But keep up the hero worship.

I see where your comming from. A person offended that you make sweeping generalizations about jealousy simply for a difference of opinion would mention how you seem to be a Criss Angel wanna be. Glad I am not offended.

You really need to sepporate your little fantasy life, and what you remebmer about your guitar lessons from reality. To say he does NOT use camera tricks, in the face of what has been shown is just willfull blindness. There is none so blind as one who will not see.

Maybe time to open your eyes huh?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
DJM
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On 2007-07-09 20:48, artofillusion77 wrote:
I must be one of the few criss angel supporters on this board. Having known him personally before his fame (criss gave me guitar lessons at his brothers music shop "monster music") I can vouche for his character. Hes one of the nicest people I've ever come across. I personally believe his effects are tremendous. I think his showmanship is unparalled in magic today.



That's the problem, you only knew him before his fame.. Since then he has become another Hollywood star diva with a huge ego who would do anything for money.

And about him writting that the doesn't use camera tricks.. did you find his book at the Fiction section of the store? Smile
Drew Manning
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His specials are terrible magic-wise. Let's not kid ourselves about that.


I think it's more a hit or miss thing with him. Some of what I've seen from him has left me cold (levitating above and in the atrium of the Luxor) and some of it has given me a good laugh (changing a spectator's snack foods into bugs). Some of it was just out of the box magic (coin matrix using SMS) that any of us can duplicate. Some of the other stuf he's done has been very tradional magic (remember the dove productions on the street?) just presented in a way that while techincally correct, could have used a better presetnation.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice
Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime,
When you have a good martini time!

-The Reverend Horton Heat
Kent Wong
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This is an interesting debate. I've always believed that, as a magician/entertainer, I have a very unique role. I am paid to lie. Either expressly or implicitly, I lie to the audience during each and every trick. Indeed, without such lies, there would be no magic.

The audience knows I'm lying to them. In fact, they give me permission to do so in order that I might entertain them. The question, however, is how far can I go in lying to the audience? Can I use a one-way deck? Can I use mirrors? Can I use a stooge? Can I use CT? If you are going to draw a line, where do you draw it and why?

It seems as though a new generation of magician has evolved. The Television Magician. In the past, we had magicians like Copperfield and Henning performing their television specials for live studio audiences. In those days, it was implicitly obvious to the home viewers that CT was not being used.

Today, however, the television magicians are no longer performing in a live studio audience. They perform for small groups of spectators on the street. How are we to know if those small groups of spectators are laypeople or stooges? Indeed, if they are simply actors playing their role and the "real" audience are the viewers at home, now the television magician really is nothing more than an actor.

If the television magician takes that one step further and accepts that he is doing nothing more than making a magic-based movie for a home viewing audience, then why wouldn't CT be acceptable? When audiences turn on their televisions to watch a movie, don't they give implicit permission for the producers to use all of the tools at their disposal to entertain?

I'm not saying this is something I would do, since I am not in the role of a television magician; but if you are a television magician, is there anything wrong with using every tool at your disposal?

This does pose a dilemma for us magicians who perform live, since we obviously don't have these tools to use. But, it is also what makes our live performances so much more incredible. For instance, we've seen movies about space ships for years and years - yet a thrill still came over me when I got the chance to see the space shuttle launch in real life. It wasn't moving at warp speed, and the technology seemed primitive compared to the movies, BUT IT WAS REAL!

Kent
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artofillusion77
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Steve I respect your opinions and I also am not trying to create an argument in anyway. I know who you are and I know your talented. you have your opinions I have mine. you say criss is'nt good. I say he's an innovator. You say he upsets the magic community, I say he helps us because he gives us exposure. Granted I'm not at all in the same circle of people your probably surrounded with but I would think more people would be looking to hire us due to his exposure and ratings...I don't want to get into his personal life because he does not like too..I think he is a good person with a good heart and so is his family. Again steve I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and what you have created. I'm sure you had your heros and people you looked up too. Criss is mine. Your probably right about his audiance.

danny doyle I am in no way a criss angel wanna be. I simply respect him for who he is and what he has accomplished. You shyould also know that the premeir episode for season 3 of his show was the most watched show on cabel television that day...I think that's pretty mainstream..your intitled to your opinion as I am mine. I was not trying to offend anybody.

DJM I disagree. Criss meets every person after one of his demonstrations. and he is still the same person that I have known before his fame.
Dannydoyle
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Most watched show on cable, which is addressable to less than 40% of the country let alone world, IN THE SUMMER SEASON on Wednesday night. Not a HUGE statistic now is it when looked at in the light of day.

Hey you know Criss and I have never attacked the man personally. I believe this nonsense with his divorce is his OWN business. I had one, it bites and I would hate the world talking about it. No matter the circumstances, he has tried to keep that away from being seen and I for one respect that.

As for his book, well it makes sense to claim you DON'T use tricks such as camera methods and CGI. The problem is as I said he has committed the cardinal sin in my opinion and gotten caught. I would think if he has half a brain, which he does, he would deny it in his book. That is smart, but when your called on it it is tough. "Who you going to believe, ME or your own lieing eyes?".

You can not tell me you don't think he uses these methods and be credible. You can tell me that you don't believe in gravity, but you are not going to float off the planet any time soon.

As I said you are willfully blind and unable to sepporate Criss the person, from Criss the personality. The first one seems like a far better person to know, than the second one.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
artofillusion77
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I think his stage personaility is a good one. I like that it is different from the old, boring tuxedo. I like the goth look I think it actually gives off the idea he has super natural powers lol. I don't think he used CGI or anything like the sort to create his levitations. I don't think he used any white washing effects. I do think he has come up with something unique that one day will be sold or bought by another magician. maybe I do have lying eyes. mabye I'm just being optimistic that it is a great method that we will one day be privillaged to know. Regardless of what people say I will always admire criss's determination and drive as well as his talents.
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Dude, if he used such an amazing method that no one has heard of he would bring thousands of people to watch his levitations, instead of like 10 people the way he usually does. Common sense.

By the way, it's obvious from this video that he's using CGI.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6_SQ7bP9dYI

The part where he flies over the trees looked much more real when Spielberg did it in ET.
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His determination, his drive, not in question. Heck I don't even question his talents. It is his JUDGEMENT which is in question in this case.

You remind me of the guys who would come in when I was working the counter at Magic Inc. I would show them a chop cup, and then when they bought it and found out how it was done sometimes they would ask "NO what about the method YOU just used?" As if there was a special method.

Well that was the method used. And in this case THAT IS THE METHOD USED. You are holding out hope so your fantasy comes true. Not a good combination.
Danny Doyle
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artofillusion77
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Guess I'm just a wishful thinker then...you guys can think its CGI I'm going to say he came up with a method on how to do it other than that.
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You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad!
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On 2007-07-10 16:00, artofillusion77 wrote:
Guess I'm just a wishful thinker then...you guys can think its CGI I'm going to say he came up with a method on how to do it other than that.


So let's see if I get it right.. He sells for 100$ this gimmick that makes him levitate a few inches, and only with stooges in front of him.. We know that since he already explained how it's done.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WZ8rwIAz1QQ


But at other times he can fly high in the sky with regular people everyehere, while using this other method that you are talking about.

Hmmmm, ok..
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You do seem to have summed it up perfectly.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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