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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Are our audiences cleverer than we think? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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harishjose
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Tony and Mathew gave a different side of view. Good job, guys. Smile

The problem with CT is that (in my humble opinion)
1) The performer himself has to believe in it.
2) He has to practice and practice and get it so well that he can do it even when he is sleeping (including peeking) Smile.

When any of the above goes wrong, you can be almost sure that the performer is letting the spectator in to the backstage.

I still remember when I went to a local magic club, and a guy who talked the talk wanted to walk the walk. He did a very basic effect. He was shaking and it was blatantly obvious what he was doing. And I said, "That was really good." Thinking back, maybe I should had been more honest. But it was very uncomfortable for me.

The world certainly has more good people than bad people. And they may not openly say, you did a bad job. Some food for thought...
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Pete Legend
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I just want the audience to be entertained.I poke fun at myself and engage.I don't give a flying rats *** if they think I can really read minds.Want to get honest feedback lock yourself in one of the bathroom stalls and listen Smile
Tony Iacoviello
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Back in 85, I was living in Texas and saw a Steven Spielberg movie listed at the local theater. I had never heard anything about it, but had seen Raider’s of the lost Arc, Temple of Doom, Poltergeist, ET, Twilight Zone, Gremlins, Back to the Future, Young Sherlock Holmes, so I went to the theater to watch it. There were only about 5 of us in the theater, it struck me as strange. This movie, The Color Purple was bound to be a spectacular film, SciFi or action adventure.

It took me until 15 minutes into the film to realize that my expectations were wrong. I did enjoy the picture, but it was not what I had thought I was going to see. Had I different expectations, I would have enjoyed it more.

Tony
teejay
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Quote:
On 2007-06-03 17:49, Tony Iacoviello wrote:


Several years a go, a friend of mine competed in the New England Close-up Competition. He did not finish well although his performance was flawless. Several of the judges later told him that the simplicity of his act is what cost him points. The coin-work he did, using gimmicked coins was well within the reach of many magicians. The thing was, he did not use gimmicked coins. Everything he did was done with normal coins and sleight of hands. In Bill's case, he made the routine look so flawless that the audience (magicians) made an assumption on how it was done, and wrongly so.
Tony


This happened to Lennart Green also?
TJ
PS
Tony
The other matter you raised must be of great interest to many members
I'm going to put it in another thread to see what comes up
TJ
Hoff Man
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Perform for kids for a while if you question the intelligence of your audience.

Is our audience clever?

You better believe it!!!

Steve
Jim-Callahan
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Unless you got an L&L audeance Steve.

J ack

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ThomasBerger
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People are definitely smarter than you think.
I think it was Dai Vernon who said magicians seldom fool their audience,
the audience is too polite to say otherwise.

Eugene Burger describes a scenario in one of his books where all
the spectators are perfectly polite etc...and afterwards dissect a performance
in such a way you squirm and realise they were being polite during performance.

In my own experience, when I worked at the Sydney casino 12 years ago, there were about 4 resident magicians.

I remember the manager telling me about the one performer you performed this shonky card trick where 2 cards were made to look like one.
This manager caught the double lift but played along.
And the performer was a professional of 30 years or so.
He had no idea.
He was being mocked, but in his mind he was a hero.

This is the crux of the matter.

In many cases the spec plays along.
Any you won't know unless you hide in the loo.

Period.
But in other cases spectators are rude and blunt and you doubt this.
No-one is polite in this crowd.
But it averages out.
Some crowds are rude and some are polite.

The key is this--
Life is not black and white but grey.

I have heard a spectator reverse engineer a tossed out deck.
If you have 300 people, do not assume they are all the the same.
Do not assume everyone is dumb.
Work to the highest common denominator.
Not the lowest.

Tom
D.Paul
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People will always think about it afterwards and try and work out an effect, if they don't then they were just not intrested. I think you have to place enough logical disconnets into the performance so when they think back they convince them self's out of the method. For instance, with the Ct if you make it clear while tearing that you cant see anything and you also divulge enough infomation that you could not have possibly of known, then how could peeking make much difference? This has happened many times to me while doing the Ct (mainly with women) but as I go to tear the paper I ask them to concentrate on (whatever) I found a lot close there eye's, I'm sure its not just me its happened to either. So yes some people will think you have seen something but its your job to cancel that explantion out when they try and back track, that's why its so important to really think about how you perform something.
psychicturtle
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Quote:
On 2007-06-04 09:34, D.Paul wrote:
People will always think about it afterwards and try and work out an effect, if they don't then they were just not intrested. I think you have to place enough logical disconnets into the performance so when they think back they convince them self's out of the method. For instance, with the Ct if you make it clear while tearing that you cant see anything and you also divulge enough infomation that you could not have possibly of known, then how could peeking make much difference? This has happened many times to me while doing the Ct (mainly with women) but as I go to tear the paper I ask them to concentrate on (whatever) I found a lot close there eye's, I'm sure its not just me its happened to either. So yes some people will think you have seen something but its your job to cancel that explantion out when they try and back track, that's why its so important to really think about how you perform something.


Excellent points, I now realise that the CT is just not for me, but may suit other performers very well. Apologies for the generalisation, although I have known people assume that 'the performer saw it as they tore it otherwise why tear it up and not just let me keep it?'.

Maybe that's just what put me off.
Different strokes for different folks.
Dr Spektor
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E.g. unless the presentation addresses the psychological reason to tear up the paper and destroy it for logical flow to what is occurring -then yep - BUSTED - but most seasoned performers have a number of seemingly great explanations delivered in a convincing way!
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acesover
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You must have a reason to destroy the paper. One of the best is one of the most obvious to magicians but it kills spectators... "Ashes on the arm". You use the ashes from the paper that you just destroyed to create the word or words on your arm...ergo you have a reason to destroy the paper by burning in this instance. But just tearing a paper to destroy it makes no sense...why use it at all if you are going to destroy it.
Remember you must have a reason to destroy the paper, be creative and perform a miracle.
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Jerome Finley
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I've never had a problem to tear it up; it's not an issue . . . I just do it and its part of the process. The importance should not be on the tear or the paper anyhow.

Also, I'm not sure that anyone who thinks the CT is rubbish should be performing mentalism. If you really do believe this, you DON'T understand it.

I guess, acesover, that if I worked according to your line of thought (which I don't, but I'll indulge you anyway Smile )would be to tear the pieces up and then animate them on the table top, or in the participants hands using Mesika's ET.

With a good CT (I prefer Lee Earle's handling and also love Osterlind's), Acidus Novus, a PWallet and Imp board . . . you could work all your life as a mentalist and be a huge success.

Are our audiences more intelligent and clever than we think? Absolutely, they are very intelligent, and hopefully, that is one of the reasons you are performing mentalism for them.

Best,
J.
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mesmer
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Even if only 3 seconds, the audience believes in what we do..., then after the show they form a discussion group same like this one with their fellow muggle to discuss our paranormal ability ...then they vote and decide to take the easy route and they all agree that what we do, "it must be a trick"...in the end...does it matter???

When I do hypnosis Show....even if this is for private gathering of employees....and all the audience is wearing the same uniform...some people think that I hire the subject that come on stage to do what I tell them to...

Sigh....

But I think to myself...does it matter???
Dario
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Does it matter???
I agree totally with you mesmer.
At the beginning of perform mentalism I was not totally happy with the people saying "Ok. ...there must be some kind of trick."
But today people is intelligent people watch TV shows, other performers, and at the end...if you where able to do what you do for real you won't be performing in a comedy club.
But the important thing is entertain and mystify. And create good presentations and select tricks that suit to you.

"Ok. ...there must be some kind of trick...but it was amazing!"
acesover
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Quote:
On 2007-06-05 01:46, TT2 wrote:
I've never had a problem to tear it up; it's not an issue . . . I just do it and its part of the process. The importance should not be on the tear or the paper anyhow.

Also, I'm not sure that anyone who thinks the CT is rubbish should be performing mentalism. If you really do believe this, you DON'T understand it.

I guess, acesover, that if I worked according to your line of thought (which I don't, but I'll indulge you anyway Smile )would be to tear the pieces up and then animate them on the table top, or in the participants hands using Mesika's ET.

With a good CT (I prefer Lee Earle's handling and also love Osterlind's), Acidus Novus, a PWallet and Imp board . . . you could work all your life as a mentalist and be a huge success.

Are our audiences more intelligent and clever than we think? Absolutely, they are very intelligent, and hopefully, that is one of the reasons you are performing mentalism for them.

Best,
J.


Whoa TT2.

Not sure if you are quoting me or not but I never said that the Center tear is rubbish..as I am the only member you quote in your post.

Also I do not need anyone to indulge me. But if you think it necessary go ahead. If you read your post it actually proves my point. After you tear up the paper you want to do something with it...you are a little late WHY DID YOU TEAR IT IN THE FIRST PLACE? The center tear is a very integral paart of Mentalism but I have never had some one write information on a peice of paper and tear it up for no reason. Seems silly...Here write down your grandmothers maiden name...hand it to me...TEAR TEAR TEAR..her name was Smith.

Write down your grandmothers maiden name. Now fold it blah blah and hand it to me. Right now you are the only person in this room that knows what is on this paper. So if I were to destroy this paper TEAR TEAR TEAR and not let anyone including myslef read it you will be the only one who knew what was on the paper. Not the way I do it but just an example that you have to have a reason to tear it. reason here is that now only he knows.

I think maybe you misunderstood me when I said you need a reason..I mean you do not just have them write something down and tear it. Play it out. As you said Indulge me.
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mesmer
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Quote:
On 2007-06-05 08:45, Dario wrote:
"Ok. ...there must be some kind of trick...but it was amazing!"

...and he/she can really entertain us!
psychicturtle
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Ok, I said that I now realise the ct is not for me, and I now realise why.
If someone writes something down or draws something, I have no logical reason to not let them or someone else hold that bit of paper.
This is why I hate peek wallets (and I have a few that I never use now...). Why take the card back and put it in a wallet? Why take it back and tear it up? From a participant POV it seems weird to take it back and put it in a wallet, so how is it not weird to take it back and then tear it up?

Isn't the only truly logical process that they write or draw something, fold the bit of paper, and put it in their pocket, or I take it and pass it to someone else to hold? Even with a billet peek there apparently is nothing going on apart from the performer holding the billet closed, yet fully visible at fingertips (if you do it right).
There should be nothing that is even slightly illogical visible. I personally see tearing the billet as illogical, and prior to getting into this game I thought it was illogical. I assume that my participants are just as, if not more, intelligent than myself, so surely they will also see something dodgy with the paper being torn up? Yes? No?

And you can spend all year coming up with different rationalisations for tearing the billet, but why not use that time to find a method that doesn't involve tearing it at all? Why justify any technique? If a technique needs justification for the audience to accept it, surely the technique is weak or underdeveloped?

We should never have to justify any of our actions, as they should all seem logical.

That is why I think the CT is pointless. Any who love it are free to disagree with me as vehemently as they wish, but as I (when I was not a magician) sussed the theory of the CT, I think others will too. And with the other techniques available there really is no need to tear a billet.
Sorry, but that is honestly how I feel about it. Audiences not being given enough credit for their intelligence.
patrick66
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I'm really let down today. I performed Nailed to someone today and it went flawless. When the effect was over and he saw the nail he was surprised first, but after 15 seconds he said that the dice must not have the number four!

WTF, I really get depressed when this happens. How could he know this as a layman? When I saw the effect for the first time I really did not know how it was done.

So yes, sometimes our audiences are very smart.

I feel a little reluctant now to perform this effect again...
equivoque
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Sometimes, we think an effect is subtle and it is really just obvious! All of your actions must have some motivation (ie Why do you ask someone to write something down?). I have seen professional instructional DVDs in which members of the audience give smug knowing glances and you know that they know! You cannot rely on the hope/chance that people are/will be ignorant and or polite. My goal is to entertain and not to "fool." There is a subtle but important difference here and much has been written on this topic. That be said/written, self-fooling is the worst possible kind of fooling! As an example, if you end an act with three different decks of cards on the table, you better believe that many members of the audience will think something is rotten in Denmark!
D.Paul
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As for having a reason for taking back the paper and tearing it up, there only lie's a problem if you create one. I take the paper back and say "as I tear it in half imagine you can see the paper and the name being torn in half, as I tear it again imagine both of the halfs being torn in half, finaly hold your hand out ill tear it again and turn my head so I cant see any of the peices open, and as I tear imagine now all the letters in the name being torn apart". I then do word play (i think that's what its called) and have them juble up the letters in there mind and have them think of one. Doing it this way gives me all the confidence in the world to take back the paper tear it up in a logical way and carry on with the presentation.
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