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Rickfcm Veteran user lower Michigan 382 Posts |
Over the years I have been sharing, because I want to, routines I use for teaching Sunday school in the Christian Conjurer and other areas. How do we convince those senior illusionist who have stepped down from performing to share the routines, given and inspired by God, with the younger generation coming up. Once they are gone, the ideas are gone.
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Joe Marotta Special user Can You Believe I Have 944 Posts |
If they are not interested in writing them down themselves, maybe someone could video tape their performance and transcribe it.
Or we could just BEAT it out of them! Sorry, I think that was the coffee talking. Please go with my first suggestion. Joe |
John Long Inner circle New Jersey 2826 Posts |
Rick
I'm not sure who you have in mind. I think of Laflin who has shared via book and DVD, and lectures. Maybe your thinking of local aquantenances? I've tired for over two years to get together with local mom & pop type of gospel magician; nada. Some just aren't motivated that way. I think like you, I find that hard to understand. John
Breathtaking Magic;
Not Breath Taking |
Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-06-18 18:44, Rickfcm wrote: Why should they? Some routines are very personal things. Would you want someone to re-paint someone else's painting, re-write someone else's book? You should respect the wishes of those who do not want other people performing their creations. I share many of my creations but there are certain routines that are mine and mine alone and I discourage anyone else from performing them as they are my signature pieces.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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kaleido-magic New user 71 Posts |
But would you share them after you pass on? Would you write them down or video tape them and let others who continue beyond you use them in a possitive way?
Brett Bensley |
Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-23 11:34, kaleido-magic wrote: Would you dishonor the memory of the creator of these effects and routines by performing them after he or she is dead? Is it better to let a brilliant routine fade from the collective memory or to have it live beyond its creator as a hollow shell of is former self?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Rickfcm Veteran user lower Michigan 382 Posts |
Payne,
I agree with you, it is their decision to handle their ideas as they see fit. I am not talking about someone's signature tricks they are recognized for, but in the field of gospel magic, there are a lot on routines written to teach an idea or a concept and these would be lost. I do share a lot of what I write because it is only seen by the children I teach on Sunday mornings and it would be a shame to limit it's exposure to only those few. Personally I hope my written notes will be handed down some day and I can only hope they would. I believe nothing should be copied from another word for word and it must be adapted to your style. I just hate to see such wisdom and knowledge die with them. Rick |
kaleido-magic New user 71 Posts |
Then you are under the impression that nothing should be passed on only because there MAY be a possibility it will be performed in an unacceptable way? I would then recommend we all get out of magic, unless we are performing all totally new (and new means from inception) magic. We can only do disservice to all those who currently and in the past, have performed better (in anyone's opinion) than we.
Let's all hang up our linking rings, use our cups from cups and balls as just tableware. Or perhaps we can share, however incomplete, the concepts and ideas in hopes that someone may be inspired to new levels of performance, or even new concepts in the art of magic. Almost all the magic we currently use and perform has come from a concept from the past, a concept of someone else. Just my thoughts on the subject. You can keep all your secrets and ideas and take them with you when you go, that is your choice. Brett Bensley |
Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Gee, It's always a pleasure to discuss issues with the totally binary.
I in no way stated that it was a simple black and white, yes or no issue. Some magicians wish to share their knowledge, others don't and others only partially. Some want everything they ever created to go to the grave with them while others wish their creations to live beyond them. Some want everything they know documented others haven't given it much thought and others only wish certain things to be passed on. Those who wish to pass their knowledge on will do so. Either to the great unwashed or to a select few or just a single apprentice. Others will have all they know die with them. In the end it's their decision alone and we should respect that and not whine and complain that so and so is being greedy and selfish because he refuses to give out the goods on his routines or thinking.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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kaleido-magic New user 71 Posts |
I didn't whine and complain. I never called anyone greedy or selfish. I just asked a question if you would share your ideas and presentation IF the person(s) could perform it to your liking, or even improve on it.
Yikes! Brett |
Jay_Rumple New user 4 Posts |
Here is the problem I see with this subject. In this business I have seen too many routines "borrowed" by performers for the greater good. Some people feel that it is okay to use someone elses material as long as they are doing it for God.
What saddens me is that many times the original performer is not given the credit that is due for their creation. These great routines were developed through prayer and practice. It really saddens me to think that some performers are not willing to put in the time to develop their own routines. It takes a lot of prayer and work to develop a good routine. If people are not willing to share what they have developed, I respect that. Asking a performer to share his routine is like asking Billy Graham if you can start preaching one of his sermons. This leads to another problem. I am not Billy Graham and there is no way that I could deliver his sermons with the same effect. Billy's sermons are messages given to him from God. They work for him. If you want to have that same personal touch with your routines then I suggest that you begin by asking God what it is he wants you to say to your audience. |
kaleido-magic New user 71 Posts |
There are people who will use others' creations for whatever reason or justification. There are those who give the creators credit and some who don't. Some will share their routines and patter and some who won't.
Your reasons and justifications can be reversed as well. How many "stole" sermons of other ministers and had more positive effects than the creator of the sermon? I think it all depends on what your goal is, if it is bring others to God, then wouldn't sharing your material be a good thing? If your goal is to get honor, glory, money, etc. then wouldn't be not so good? The big question is more like how do you feel about sharing your stuff and why? I don't think there is a right or wrong, except not giving credit where credit is due and in a way the "credit" is to be given: "Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's. Give to God what is God's." Thanks for the great discussion. Brett Bensley |
Kif Anderson FCM forum Staff 1961 - 2012 386 Posts |
When anyone gets started doing magic, or any other art, they almost always imitate someone they have seen. They also tend to do the routine exactly as it is written in the instructions. Only a few ever do original material. So yes, people use what others have done. The reason…they believe it will work. It is a risk to step out and try something new. Many…no…most… never will. And if we suggest that folks only do original material when sharing the gospel, then we won’t reach as many as we could if we all truly had sharing hearts.
That said, now to the question of “How do we convince those senior illusionist who have stepped down from performing to share the routines, given and inspired by God, with the younger generation coming up.” Convince them someone cares. What they have has value. And Joe’s suggestion of having someone shoot a video is good, but let the video include someone else younger, and also respected, who is a fan of the elder’s work. Let it be an interview and magic demonstration. Johnny Thompson did that with Charlie Miller and others. These are a great resource. And while gospel magic doesn’t have as wide of market (yet) there is a hunger for material and ways to present the gospel. Now another interesting point to the original question Rickfcm asked was the part when he talked about the message being…” given and inspired by God.” I don’t know what you believe on the subject, but I personally believe my best material was truly God inspired. And does God reveal things to us that we are supposed to keep to ourselves? I write up all the ideas that I have when it comes to routining. I have more that four times as many developed scripts than those that I do. Now because I’ve created something that doesn’t work for me, should I just keep it in a notebook on my desk, or some obscure file on my computer? Or maybe, just maybe, the inspiration was to help someone else. We need to become a body of folks that helps, encourages, and shares with one another so we can effectively share the greatest message out there. And if someone helps bring a person to the realization that they need Jesus in their life with words I’ve written, you think I would be angry about that? I suspect it will be added to my account in Heaven someday. So pray about it before you approach someone to share and ask God to open their heart to the idea. And if they really don’t want to, then I agree with what Payne as said, respect their decision not to share. However, using his “painting” perspective, I don’t think what we do is repaint anything, but share similar brush strokes with other artists who are together painting the same picture for the world. The picture of Jesus Christ and the redemption that comes to those who believe. Now admittedly this makes no sense in the secular world perhaps, and doesn’t apply for that matter, but to gospel performers, I think it is pretty clear. “It ain’t about us…it’s about Him.” ><> J Kif Anderson
We are not cisterns made for hoarding, we are channels made for sharing. - Billy Graham
<BR> <BR>Sharing the gospel with Comedy & Illusion www.ozandwilde.com |
sloopcamelot New user 13 Posts |
Interesting discussion. Right now I am teaching a Adult Sunday school where we will next be studying the sermons of John Wesley. I'm thankful that his sermons were written down and preserved. How sad if they had not been. Also, should I never quote someone in a sermon because I could never preach the way they can? Should I not preach on the Pauline letters, because I can in no way approach the discipleship of Paul? Seems to me the same could be said about routines in magic. All of us build on what we have experienced and seen. We are truly blessed when someone shares their method of successfully spreading the gospel message no matter what the format. We must however, give credit for where we have gotten our material. To do otherwise is stealing.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
There is a world of difference between being inspired by a routine one has seen and replicating it move for move. We are all simply amalgams of every person we've ever seen and every event we've ever experienced. It is how we choose to recompile these streams of data that makes us an inspired original or a thoughtless hack.
Nothing wrong with quoting or being inspired by a work from someone else but everything wrong with copying it completely and trying to pass it off as your own.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Joe Marotta Special user Can You Believe I Have 944 Posts |
Well said Payne.
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JRob Veteran user Central South Carolina 395 Posts |
This discussion is reminiscent of the discussions amongst preachers about using sermons written by others. I tend to come down on the side of using the idea but not the finished work. I have sat through sermons that I knew came out of a book, because I owned that particular book. They were not the preacher's and you could tell. The same holds true, in my opinion, of using the material of others, regardless of one's intent.
"Jim Roberts, AKA: Professor Jay Rob "<br>
The Professor's Facebook Page |
Rickfcm Veteran user lower Michigan 382 Posts |
JRob,
You hit the nail on the head. No one should use someone else's work, but the idea of using an illusion to teach a certain subject or idea would be most helpful for the newer people in the field. Rick |
kaleido-magic New user 71 Posts |
And yet when creative and inspired individuals or groups step beyond what has been done or said before, they have frequently faced great opposition. Take the reformation. So, it is use your own words, but keep my message? or is it use your own message, but keep my words?
Sometimes we need someone to follow until we can step out as leaders ourselves. Wouldn't it be nice to get a little help along the way? Just stoking on a few more logs to the fire. Brett Bensley |
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