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mikethemagish New user 48 Posts |
Okay so by now we all know that the trick where you fold up the bill and make it flap like a butterfly is the creation of Bob Neale with touches added by Andrew Goldenhersh.
I don't know about the rest of you but I'm tired of seeing people release material that is not theirs and then ask for permission later. Garcia has presented this problem more than once so you know it is not just an accident that he's trying to fix. The facts are out there and people should know the truth. People trying to make a quick buck off someone else and then try to dodge the facts has made me sick and I'm tired of it. My question is what can we do to not only stop this type of behavior but how can we expose the people that are doing it in the process so it does not continue in the future. magish for life |
JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
If you feel strongly about it, then take your business elsewhere. It really is just that simple. Do we know how Neale and Goldenhersh feel about it? I think before I even think about passing judgment, I would want to hear from them. as the allegedly "wronged" parties. On the other hand, I haven't bought a new effect in about 2 decades, so I don't think there was a lot of danger of me supporting such behavior in the first place. Most of the stuff I perform was old when I purchased it anyway. I'm afraid that I find the best way to fight the fight you are fighting, is by not feeling that good magic is based on the hottest new effect around.
You have asked a question, and I feel I have given a very sound answer. |
truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Part of the problem comes in letting people know there is an issue. You make that case for us. Neale has issued a statement on the affair, and Goldenhersh has been vocal about his disapointment. The first step which will allow people to know they may need to reconsider their buying choices is informing them of the issue, which Mike has done.
The facts of the situation establish that permission was not sought until after the DVD was on the market. This is untenable regardless of whatever outcome. Neale was happy to have received credit though would have been prefered to have been asked permission. Sadly, that credit was cut from the DVD (denying Neale his only request) and the effect has been renamed and now attributed to a different magician. This is not the first time Ellusionist has done so (or the first time they or their representatives have misrepresented the truth). Silver Dream included work by Homer Liwag used without permission. While Miller will tell you Homer is "cool with everything," parties closer to the actual situation know otherwise. In fact, I do not know if to this day Justin has talked with Homer himself. (By the way, "Well, I'm not going to sue you" is not the same as being "cool with something.") There have been other issues. Reportedly when alerted Christian's response was, "I will deal with that fire when I have to." So clearly it is a "Film now, ask permission later" philosophy. Sometimes, when the real creators are contacted, they are not outraged, as was the case with Neale. (Sometimes they are as in the case of Miseka and Yves). However, that does not make the practice less wrong. Of course, Neale's feelings were predicated on the belief that his name was now more closely associated with his beautiful creation - which as we can see from threads on the Café - it is not. So, is it right for people to film and sell ideas based on others work without permission? Is it write for someone to rename someone's original idea and do nothing when they see that person's name being stripped off of the public record? What can/should we do about it? I have asked Daniel Garcia many times (though in faiorness the question shoul dbe directed to everyone associated with Ellusionist policies): Is it ok to publish the idea's of another person, in whole or in part, without permission? I have never received an answer. Brad |
Justin N. Miller Inner circle 2457 Posts |
Brad,
Once again you are wrong as ussual. FACT: I talked with Kenner for 30 minutes concerning this matter BEFORE Silver Dream was released. Kenner acted as a liasion between myself and Homer..Kenner's EXACT words were.. "Dude, Homer is not mad at all" Silver Dream went to the masses with blessing. Your info that you so call say is TRUTH (man your avatar is the biggest oxymoron) was given to you by none other than Nate Kranzo a man who is known for his uncanny ability to search and find the latest jerry springer gossip in the magic world. It was Nate (and everyone hear me very closely because I have been sitting on this for a long time now but because natey boy and mr. TRUTH (lol) teller wants to battle with FALSE info I have no choice but to spill the beans) who tried to stop SD from coming out by crying like a little schooll girl to Homer " oh..boo hoo..Homer..boo hoo..I think Justin Miller..sob.. stole a move of yours... sob..sob.. whatever should I do..anything Homer I am at your command master.. sob.. (lick on lolipop)..( skipping away into the sunset of punkhood). Nate also went so far as to throw Danny and E-llusionist under the bus on the LOOPS project..but I am sure Nate will spin it the way that seems righ to him...you go Nate! Lest see..oh yea. Nate is also the proud owner of a shiny new ego and matching lies to match. This is the man that decided he was going to tell lies about me to the head of the MAGMA convention in order to get me off the roster. I steal money, I was arrested in Las Vegas for money laundering (lol that was good one).. and the director of the convention is just at fault as much is our "stand up guy" Nate Kranzo for listening and following through on fireing me from the convention just 3 months BEFORE it was to take place...by the way Paul the director has appologized to me and ADMITTED they were wrong but..(and this part I find most hi-lar-e-us..they just hired him back for next yr!! You have got to be kidding me. "justin we know that nate lied, that we went off of false info and that nate has no morals and committed defamation of character..but Hey his coin tricks are really good...so he is coming back, because we do not care about morals here in the carolinas we just like magic. You could be a rapist and a baby killer and hey as long as you got a KILLER hindu shuffle..you ar,ight in our book". Yea you want to know how cool of a convention it was just ask Eric Jones who got all of his coins stolen from his booth..yep the center for moral ethics MAGMA no wonder they hired nate again he is going to be like their spokes person..GOOOOO MAGMA! I digress... Brad and Nate I pray daily we will meet soon. Becuase the next meeting we have will NOT be like the first..I PROMISE YOU THAT! By the way it should be noted that I have tried to call nate numerous times but funny..he does not return my calls..mmm wonder why. But I am sure he will hide behind a computer and type his little heart away and tell me how misguided I am and bring up my past as if that will detract you from the TRUTH AT HAND. The best thing about a persons past nate (and listen real carefully) if you DEAL with it IT CANNOT COME BACK TO HAUNT YOU...And deal with it I have. Justin N. Miller |
dg magic Veteran user Houston , TX. 350 Posts |
Justin... don't bother man.... Brad isn't worth your time.
All that is going to happen is brad is going to flip words... make himself sould like some saint who is out to save the magic world. As you can tell Brad DOESN'T have any FACTS. If people want the truth and the FACTS they can email Bob Neale and find out what brad leaves out. just stop posting man... He isn't worth it. DG Justin..Katrina says hello.
-Truth is made up of two things... FACT... and the ability to believe it-
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mikethemagish New user 48 Posts |
Personally I am still waiting for this question to be answered...
"I have asked Daniel Garcia many times (though in faiorness the question shoul dbe directed to everyone associated with Ellusionist policies): Is it ok to publish the idea's of another person, in whole or in part, without permission? I have never received an answer." I love how this has been dodged time and time again, silence speaks for itself. magish for life |
Justin N. Miller Inner circle 2457 Posts |
Katrina,
hey darling..keep a leash on your man..HE'S A WILD!! Danny, You are right bro! But this whole thing with SD and Neales effect and warning and (fill in the blank for the future) is uncalled for. You know we had terms for guys like Brad and nate in schooll..teachers pet. Those who know Myself and Danny know THE TRUTH..but why listen to the truth when you can hear the masterful story tellers (dude that' a great avatar name for you STORY TELLER" -subtitle "will he speak truth or a lie don't know but one thing is for sure you will def ,I know you cannot abbv. def..silly Justin, be hearing a story" They should go on the rd. The amazing and dazzling STORYTELLERS Nathan, spin the truth till your head spins, Kranzo and his side kick the unbelievable,Brad, I like to post anything I can to make myself look like god (oops freaudian slip) I mean make myself look good and you will not debate me becaue I am to good, henderson. guys you could make a lot of money..or just work for the government. Justin N. Miller Next.. Brad its right not write. |
truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
So, Danny, Justin:
Is it right to publish someone else's ideas, in whole or in part, without permission. Brad (if teacher's pets were the ones who tried to do the RIGHT thing, what would that make you?) Henderson (Neale's statement was published on this forum and another. It is freely available to those who want to read it. Of course, does that make it right to ask for permission AFTER the effect is out? Anyone, anyone???? What are the FACTS when it comes to Yves' Danny?) |
mikethemagish New user 48 Posts |
Doing the right thing might be the 'un-cool' thing to do but it certainly is the ethical thing to do if you have morals. I'm surprised that the questions have never been answered about asking permission later or lifting material in general.
Of course being honest will show that what you do is wrong and you certainly don't want to do that do you? magish for life |
dg magic Veteran user Houston , TX. 350 Posts |
Justin,
LOL... didn't I tell you on the phone EXACTLY what Brad was going to say. Man... I should be a mentalist. like I said... just stop posting. I'm done here... you should be too. all they will do is come on and start talking about how you not responding makes them right... let them do it man... its not worth it raising your blood pressure over. Later Gater, DG
-Truth is made up of two things... FACT... and the ability to believe it-
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Just got off the phone with Kenner. He was completely supportive of Nathan and expressed his gratitude that Nathan came forward and alerted him of the impending release of Silver Dream. At that time there was no credit to Homer, nor was one intended. No one had thought to contact ANYONE.
Because of Nathan, Chris was able to change that fact and now, at least, the record is straight. Sadly, this points to the behavior which is the subject of the thread - and that which no one will respond to: Is it ok to release someone else's ideas, in whole or in part, without permission? As we saw with Silver Dream there was no credit slated to be given. Thankfully, because of concerned magicians such as Nathan, Homer's name did not get erased from the published record (as it seems to be happening with Neale.). Since you're reading, Daniel, care to honor us with an answer to the question: Is it right to publish someone else's idea, in whole or in part, without permission? Brad |
Eric Jones V.I.P. Director of Product Development 2101 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-06-20 14:45, jussy wrote: I just wanted to touch on this for those reading this article. I consider Paul Emmanuel a friend of mine, and though I just recently met Justin, I consider him a friend as well. While yes, I had several coins stolen from my dealer booth at the convention, I didn't blame the organizer of the event. Unfortunately, there were some problems with the hotel, that left a window of opportunity for any shady individual to pillage the dealers room, and I fear that I wasn't the only person who had missing items. With that said, The MAGA convention was a terrific convention and Justin it was a true shame that a disagreement/miscommunication or what have you kept you from performing. In this situation, I certainly hope that you and Paul are able to sit down, hash out your differences, and remember to make it all about the magic. As far as the topic on hand, my answer to Mr. Henderson's question definitively is, no...it isn't ok to reproduce other people works in part or in whole. I am of the opinion(not that it matters much) that if you decide that you're going to put out instructional media, then it is your sole responsibility to research each item in its contents to provide proper crediting. Sure, most of us aren't historians and can't trace items back to when magicians used to walk on water or change water into wine, but surely we can ask guys who are a bit more knowledgeable than ourselves to get more insight on whatever plot we're researching. I completely agree that there is entirely today without any regard for those who came before. Some of us forget to credit the shoulders of the giants we're currently standing on...damn shame really. But what to do when you have credited someone properly, and that credit is removed in the editing process by someone else??? To quote Jamy Ian Swiss, "That, as they say, is another story..."
“We're two tigers away from an act in Vegas.” Greg House M.D.
<BR> <BR>http://www.ericjonesmagic.com |
erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
At least one of the PR guys at Ellusionist has been notified about the situation, and hopefully he'll make a statement from the company soon about this. I'm not holding my breath, but I suppose there's always a chance.
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