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Virungan Inner circle Here and There 1156 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-08 16:40, mindpunisher wrote: You may want to consider how many people go to doctors for treatment as opposed to those who go to psychics and revise your argument there.... It's a little like saying more people are killed each year in cars than those on pogo sticks...
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Also the number of telephone poles per cubic mile has a high association with the number of people with mental health disorders
(The reason being most people with chronic severe mental illness end up in metropolitan core areas for a variety of reasons... just so happens being in a big city requires more telecommunication objects - but then some people like to claim "its dem radio waves!!!!!!".... association is not causation).....
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
"You may want to consider how many people go to doctors for treatment as opposed to those who go to psychics and revise your argument there..."
You might want to...but not from that statement. There is no statistical information offered, just conjecture. America's Healthcare System is the Third Leading Cause of Death Barbara Starfield, M.D. (2000) Summary by Kah Ying Choo http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm So, how many deaths are caused by psychics? Without this stat that conjecture is meaningless. A belief unsupported by facts is, dare I say, superstitious. Not very skeptical at all. |
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Marc Spelmann Special user London U.K. 666 Posts |
Thank you Dr Spektor re: your previous post on page 14..
I do browse through the Café from time to time and try to get involved with interesting topics such as this one but the Café for me can be quite addictive and heaven knows there are not enough hours in the day as it is.. Always a pleasure sharing thoughts with friends here whether we agree or not, a polite good natured debate or discussion is good for the mind and educates us all that our opinions are exactly that merely our own.. Good to see you here to Dr Spektor.. Spelmann
It's not goodbye, just see you later...
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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts |
I think it is fantastic that now, after so many pages, this turned into intelligent discussion, thank you all for being open to each other.
As per this yellow circle bit. One thing that allot of psychic focus exorcises seem to do is give people a way to meditate of their selves and their current situations. If you need a way to reflect, using a yellow circle, a candle, a chapel for prayer, a reading, a psychotherapist, all seem to have the same possible effect to me. These are all ways for focus on the state of things in your life, your own human condition and reflect on what you may need to be doing to make changes or bring out thing you may not have noticed. I assume people will disagree with me that a psychotherapist should be included here, and I have never been to one, so I don't have any experience, just an assumption based on what I have been told and read. I do find it a little strange that our society accepts things more easily if there are scientific books behind them and a degree. In the end people do or go to others for these things more than once because somehow they work for them. And if they have a positive effect, then it will be next to impossible to make any difference by trying to explain that what they are doing is a fraud, or is not real in some way. In the end you are just insulting them.
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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Marc Spelmann Special user London U.K. 666 Posts |
Again Stuart very fair points which I agree with as nothing is cut and dry.. I guess ultimately we all have choices about what makes us happy and also what we seek as a source of contentment. Mine is different from others but that is what makes us all so very interesting..
My ex girlfriends mother lost her long term boyfriend and had a reading that was very moving for her, when she explained it to me I knew much of it was cold reading and generalised statements but I couldn't and wouldn't say this as it was not the time or place and in effect I would have ruined or upset an otherwise positive experience so I totally understand what you mean and also Anabelles situation with her friend.. It is a real pleasure discussing this with you all as I am learning some points of view that three days ago I would have glanced over. Be well guys and girls.. Spelmann
It's not goodbye, just see you later...
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-09 12:51, StuartPalm wrote: Do you really? You are seriously saying that you find it strange that society accepts something if it looks like it has some sort of scientific evidence (the actual validity of the science or degree of the author is another matter too)? I would say the exact opposite, that I find it strange that people accept things with no proof or evidence behind them other than hearsay. But, like your first statement says, it takes many points of view to have a real intelligent discussion. You did bring up an interesting point, one that is often referred to as the placebo effect. Whether or not something really does work or not, one's beliefs can give it credence. If you talk to any clinical researcher, you will hear stories of dozens of people, who had received sugar pills (well, not necessarily "sugar") who swear up and down that the pills cured them. Clinicians learn early on to not break the news to such people that they received the placebo because, quite frankly, the get upset. Just like you were saying, it can come off as an insult. Mr. Spelmann's example is another great one, sharing of what actually happened would have done no good (assuming truth is not good enough, which is a completely different topic that I am not touching with a 100-foot pole). The question that I have, and that is relative to the original topic of the thread, is whether the person who received the placebo should then start thanking snake oil salesmen. That is to say, should she be thankful to those who rip people off and take advantage of the placebo effect while making a profit (I trust I don't need to make the allusion any more clear at this point)? I would say no, but again, there could be an argument that the placebo effect was that extra edge she needed to recover on her own. It's all very interesting and all very muddled but I have my own opinion. I feel that she recovered on her own and she should be thankful to nobody but herself. Thanks are not owed those who profit on the woes of others and who's success is really on the success of their victims IN SPITE of snake oil treatments. It's all quite interesting, esp. since people seem to have such evangelical beliefs one way or another, myself admittedly included. -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts |
I can't say one way or the other about whether thanks should be in order. I guess if one feels thankful, then that is that.
As per what I said before, "I do find it a little strange that our society accepts things more easily if there are scientific books behind them and a degree. " Out of context I would have to agree with you. But when I wrote that I was specifically thinking about psychotherapy. I guess I would have to rephrase the statement this why: I find it intriguing that when there is a subject that can't be proven one way or the other such as psychology, hypnotism, dowsing, or even various art forms, that validation can be made by showing that you studied it in school, or simply through some form of certification which can be very bogus. It is words like, "certified," or "expert," that make things so much more believable. Such as Certified dowsing instructor, or certified hypnotist, or even better, certified ghost hunter. I was just searching on google for examples and found all these things. The thing that fascinates me about it is that the people in these cases who are "certified," if it be that what they are doing is bogus, may not actually believe that it is. They may believe that what they are doing is completely scientific. What do you do with that? I mean, what if Uri believes everything he does is completely valid, completely real. My father works as a planner for land development, he has seen people use dowsers on a few occasions for find water and not even get paid for it, these were people who were already part of the job. In one circumstance a guy who was part of the team simply said, "well my father used to do this to find water, I could try it since we aren't having any luck." Every instance my father has experienced this has yielded success. He is still skeptical because, well, you are walking around with a stick in your hand, but its kind of amazing. In the case of Uri, (this post has inspired some research,) it has been said that much of his fortune was made through dowsing for oil companies and the like.
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
You raise excellent points, which is exactly why I can't begrudge anybody their opinion on this topic. You bring up another interesting point regarding Mr. Geller. If, indeed, he believes everything he does is valid, that is something but then, what about the instances where there is recorded and/or witnessed evidence that he engages in trickery? Again, simply because he uses trickery doesn't mean he can't do something for real but it does raise issues about credibility.
In any case, thanks for the great discussion everybody. -C
Cognite tute
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-08 17:41, Anabelle wrote: Most often it is better to untie a knot rather than cut it off. Shalom and Namaste, Arnon |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
What makes you believe that? Some knots are to tight to be undone....
Some believers will never untie themselves no matter what you say. You are operating from your belief system. Sometimes you need to work from some one else's |
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Mindpunisher:
If you will re-read what I said, "Most often" it is better to undo the damage rather than surgically remove it (but obviously, not always). The better choice will depend on, among other things, the person's belief system that you are working with - how "tight" the knot is. That was one of the points of what I said, and why I put it as "Most often." Unfortunately, some people need radical surgery. Thankfully, Anabelle's friend did not, and was released from her "knot" by Anabelle's reading that "untied" it. Thanks. Arnon P.S. Loosen up. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I see I got you wrong thinking you meant that rationaliszing was untying it..
I am very loose tonight no knots...watsoever, |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Hey, anyone ever hear about Alexander the Great's method for solving the Gordian Knot?
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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Marc Spelmann Special user London U.K. 666 Posts |
Just have to say guys and girls, some really interesting points here, I am getting addicted to the Café, a sure sign is my girlfriend finding me typing away at 2.00 in the morning.
I have often wondered what Uri thinks when he closes the door after a days work.. Does he walk in and put the stressed spoons down with the magnet and think, job done.. Or does he go in and believe in certain aspects of what he has done, creating positivity and inner human belief. A Priest goes home and obviously genuinely feels they have done good, touched the souls of some and generally been a good person by preaching their beliefs. I wonder if Geller feels he uses trickery for the want of a better word to enhance his belief in the power of the human mind? I guess he must do as it would be an incredible burden to be constantly playing the part of someone who is genuine?? In regards to the untying of knots, some people do not want their knots untied, in fact some people like their knots tied very tightly whilst others need their knots untied in order to move on.. There's a sentence I didn't think I'd write here.. Spelmann
It's not goodbye, just see you later...
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Nice sentence, Marc... (I feel as if I know you through your DVDs, so forgive the instant familiar appellation.)
You stated before that: Quote:
On 2007-07-08 18:32, Marc Spelmann wrote: Do you NOW still believe that you would appeal to the woman's intellect rather than work on untying the knot that was so unethically tied by the prior "Tarot person" as you called them? Or do you now think that perhaps Anabelle's path - steering the poor woman, by means of her belief system, back to freedom from the script implanted in her so wrongfully - might be more effective, and perhaps even better than a dose of cold reality? Arnon P.S. I certainly do |
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Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
Arnon,
Working hard to make up are you not? (With Anna) So I take from your post you now find possible value in Uri. How strange. J ack H.O.A-X
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Jim/Jack:
I know you want to fight some more, but I do not. I like the way this thread has gone onto a positive path. Let's keep it that way, shall we? Arnon |
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Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
I have no problem with that Arnon.
But I do find your change a bit amazing. Please continue. J ack H.O.A-X
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Jim/Jack:
Whatever change in me you perceive is only in your eyes. I have remained true to myself and what I value. Arnon P.S. I still believe Uri is a fraud and charlatan, and dreadfully betrayed his people, of which I proudly am one. In stark contrast, check out Ilana Yahav, another Israeli. Her work can be viewed at: http://www.sandfantasy.com |
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