The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Purist in coin magic? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
LiquidSn
View Profile
Elite user
New York
472 Posts

Profile of LiquidSn
Rune Klan's video is only VHS.

I highly recommend it. he has a great way of handling coins, and great palm to palm transfers of multi coins

Tony
Blog about magic. by me.

Http://www.doublefacers.com
Chris S
View Profile
Veteran user
393 Posts

Profile of Chris S
I hope the guy does more. He is absolutely incredible. I reckon Ramsey would have been very impressed with Rune. His motions are smooth and motivated.

regarding 'purist by effect', I don't understand. It seems the phrase that people are referring to is "I do stuff that looks like pure magic". To me, this is a truism. It is unlikely we strive for anything BUT that! I don't think anyone would say 'yeah, I look to perform effects that look distnctly un-magic like'. If we all seek to perform effects as close to magic as possible, then should we all then be called "effect" purists. What a nonsensical label. A purist eschews gaffs - period. It has nothing to do with effect.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
David Neighbors
View Profile
V.I.P.
4857 Posts

Profile of David Neighbors
Hi Chris,
We just Disagreed on the Definition Of Purist! To me A purist is someone who Does stuff that looks like pure magic and Has nothing To do with what you use to Do It!!! I have lots Of Un gaffed stuff Just most of it is not In Print! Becase I thought It was way too hard For most The Boys! When in most my Lectures The ? I get the Most I " How Do you do A classic Palm!" If you want to See one of my hard core Routines Take A look Backhanded coins across At Dan's Coinvanish.com site!
It only uses A 2&a 3 Coin Backpalm!!! I Sent hin A ungaffed set Called The Soft set! But he thought It was too hard to write up! I have Thought about Puting out A set Of Notes With Nouthing but My hardcore ungaffed stuff in it! But I thought Maybe 4 or 5% Of The magic buying People Would get it!I have All way thought You should be able to Do An Hour or so Of hard core sleight stuff before you are can pick up A gaff! That Way when you Pick up A Gaff You will handle it Like it's a Real coin and your body Langage will not give you away! In A lot of my coin work I do some hardcore stuff frist to set them up Before I ring in the Gaff! I don't think A gaff should be used becase you can not do sleight of hand! But used with it In A Sleight-gaff combo To put The Sleight on The off beat! Just becase you use a Gaff Does not mean The Routine is Easy! Some of my stuff gaff has hard core stuff in it too! I am more concern with How much it looks like magic to my Audience! I have worked in College Bars for over 20 years. A Drunk College Student Will Tackle you just a Quick If thay Think you Have A coin Palmed Or An extra coin As thay Will For A gaff!!! As I have said before
You Have To know When To use A gaff Not just how! And When Is the Hard Part! For those Kind of people You Keep your gaffs in your Pockit And Do the Ungaff stuff! You Have to know the difference beteen A captive Audience
And A Reg. Audience! A Reg. Audience needs to be won over! That have to know you are GOOD! Just think that thay a sign on there head that says SO-WHAT why Should I be inerested in what you are doing! Which is part of Audience management! And Sometimes Instead of thinking of gaff vs. seight you need to lurn some Audience management! I did A kid show A wile back And The thing The adults where most Amazed by was " How did you get the kids to set there and be Quite for And Hour and just watch you do magic?" So sometimes as the old masters use to say " It's not what you do it's how you do it!" Now For A Captive Audience Thay already know you are good so you just have to do your stuff and live up to what thay know about you! And As far As Reseting Goes 4 coin And Shell, 2 c/1 s and outher stuff need no reset! Save the stuff that needs reset for that one time in the night you realy want to kill someone! Most Of the time You Don't don't need it! ok That it from me know Thanks! Oh And Chris it has everything to do with Effect that's what A audience sees And what thay see Is what thay think is the Magic!

Best David Neighbors
The Coinjurer
David Neighbors



The Coinjurer

www.coinjurer.com
Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
4160 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
I agree completely with Dave. I consider myself a purist, but I don't think there is a difference when you use an extra coin or a gaff. In each, you need something extra to make the effect look cleaner. There is, for example, more work in a three fly using only three normal coins. More work ultimately means less magical. Improvements can be made by using an extra coin, and I think that there is almost universal agreement the Kohler's gaffed version is one of the cleanest around. Each one requires sleight of hand to make the effect look magicial, and the gaff allows you to eliminate extra moves. The cleaner the routine, the better your magic, and there's nothing wrong with using a gaff if you can get it out before the end of the routine.
AT LAST - a NEW fun coins across!! MIGRATE is filled with laughs, magic, cool moves, lasts over 3 minutes, uses props, comes in a Poker Chip version or special Deluxe version with coins, and is about...BEARS!
https://youtu.be/gGjMtW1DLjA

Send inquiries to rubinsteindvm@aol.com

Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
David Neighbors
View Profile
V.I.P.
4857 Posts

Profile of David Neighbors
Hi Mike,
Thanks! If you Can't Get it out before The end of the Routune You have to save that routine till thay all ready know that all you do is hardcore sleight of hand!!! And they are past the grabby stage! Then you can ring in the gaff and kill them! There are what I call walk on water routines! You save them till after you have
proved that you Can walk on Water! Smile.

Best David Neighbors
The Coinjurer
David Neighbors



The Coinjurer

www.coinjurer.com
Chris S
View Profile
Veteran user
393 Posts

Profile of Chris S
Riiiight. I had always been under the assumption that a purist was someone who DOES NOT USE GAFFS OF ANY KIND. Just coins or just cards. Would someone be kind enough to explain succinctly why this is an incorrect assumption on my part? The issue of "purist" and the issue of "clean magic" are two very different concepts! It seems that this fact is being forgotten.

The original question - the subject topic, is about purist coin work. No gaffs. This talk of "I am a purist, as long as my magic is strong and I ring the gaffs in and out well" simply does not hold water and is entirely fallatious when taken in the context of the universally accepted definition of a purist. Its like saying; "sure I am a vegetarian. I have the odd steak here and there, but I only eat them when nobody is looking".

In the end, if you're using gaffs, then brother, you ain't a purist - period.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
Dan Watkins
View Profile
Inner circle
PA
3028 Posts

Profile of Dan Watkins
Chris,

It comes down to defining the word purist. http://www.dictionary.com defines the word as “One who practices or urges strict correctness, especially in the use of words.”

In our application it would be one who practices or urges correctness in coin magic.

Let’s take a look at the word pure. It is has several definitions depending on the context of its use. I believe the most applicable one is this: “Containing nothing inappropriate or extraneous.”

So one must ask, what is “correct coin magic” (definition of purist)? And is the use of gaffs inappropriate or extraneous (definition of pure)?

I would say “correct coin magic” as Dave Neighbors said should look like real magic. I would argue that gaffs do indeed help create the illusion of real magic. If I have two coins in my hand and simply by closing my hand and opening it, only one coin is there, it is magic. If I Backclipped the second coin, I can’t show the other side of my hand and I would have had to make some hand adjustments to do the sleight. If I had a shell that nested over a coin, it takes no moves, and I can show both sides of my hand. In this specific interest I would argue that using a shell is a “more correct” way of creating this specific vanish.

Are gaffs inappropriate or extraneous? I would argue no. They are appropriate for their intended use, and when used properly are complimentary not extraneous.

Ignoring showmanship and the ability to entertain and focusing purely on the mechanics of creating a magical effect, I would say that coin magic is created by two things:

1. Sleight of hand (manipulation of props)
2. Concealed apparatus (this includes the use of an extra coin).

Purist magic is knowing how to use both correctly and appropriately.

I would argue that instead of using the word purist to define your viewpoint of only using methodology #1 above, I would called it restrictionist magic. One who restricts their use of methods.

I for one have routines that solely use #1 above, I have routines that use both #1 and #2 above, but not many that rely on #2 alone.

When I want to create a certain effect I want to have all the options open to me for the best solution, not purposely eliminate half the options. Sometimes we are restricted in what we can do. If someone hands me four quarters and asks me to do a magic routine with them, it is good to know how to perform restricitonist magic in a restricted situation.

In instances where restrictions are not present, purist magic can take place.
Click to visit:
Image
Andy G
View Profile
Regular user
Terra Australis
180 Posts

Profile of Andy G
Tony was quite clear in his post that started this thread that he meant gaffless by the term purist. Surely an argument about terminology is a waste of bandwidth. You say potato I say potatoe as Dan Quayle would say. However, there's a few people that might might lurn a thing or two from dictionary.com. Smile
David Neighbors
View Profile
V.I.P.
4857 Posts

Profile of David Neighbors
Thanks Dan,
Chris That's What it Is An Assumption! An It's Not Universally Accepted Just look at A lot of the old Masters who used gaffs At the right time! Ed Marlo, Dai-Vernon, Nate Leipzip,Jhon Ramsay, Houdini, Max Minli ( Hope I spelled that right) Thay all used Gaffs But would think them selfs Purist! And As Dan said Look At Dictionary .com. So then Brother There Is No Period About it!!! And As to Cleanness I never said Ungaffed Coin Magic Can't be clean I Have A lot that Is!

Best David Neighbors
The Coinjurer
David Neighbors



The Coinjurer

www.coinjurer.com
Dan Watkins
View Profile
Inner circle
PA
3028 Posts

Profile of Dan Watkins
Quote:
On 2003-02-03 13:50, Andy G wrote:
Tony was quite clear in his post that started this thread that he meant gaffless by the term purist.


Tony didn't use purist. He was quite clear in his question however. I was reponding to Chris S, not Tony with regards to how I (and others who have posted) interpret the word "purist".

Then I continued on in my post to indicate that yes, sometimes it is good to know how to do restrictionist coin magic, when you are in restricted situations. Not all situations are restrictive though. For example many people don't like lapping coin routines because you have to be seated at a table. This like gaff coins is a restricted condition. Lapping works great in context, gaffs work great in context.

I think magicians do themselves a diservice not to use EVERYTHING at their disposal to create solutions. When you don't consider everything, you may not come up with the best solution.
Click to visit:
Image
Andy G
View Profile
Regular user
Terra Australis
180 Posts

Profile of Andy G
Tony wrote the title of the thread therefore Tony did use the word purist. Quod erat demonstrandum.
Dan Watkins
View Profile
Inner circle
PA
3028 Posts

Profile of Dan Watkins
Good point, his definition is then flawed. And he has now learned a better description for it, as well as views on it.
Click to visit:
Image
TheAmbitiousCard
View Profile
Eternal Order
Northern California
13417 Posts

Profile of TheAmbitiousCard
Here's how I look at it...

If you're using gaffs because you just don't feel like putting in the time to do an effect without them, you are doing yourself a great disservice.

If your'e using gaffs because you've thought about it, and it imporves an effect or makes it better for walk-around, stand-up, table-hopping or even because you wish to have experience with the handling of a gaff (which can be an art in itself) then...
You Go Girl!!!


The easiest example might be spellbound? Who does this with a copper/silver double-facer? Certainly, the handling would be cleaner; the reset is pretty good; no flashing of the "other" coin. But I can't imagine gaining a lot of personal satisfaction or imporving your magical chops from using that coin for that routine.

What's the point.


A lot of my reluctance using gaffs comes from gaff management. Where do I keep it. Did I accidently create a double-tails coin.
Noise problems, angle problems. Grabby spectators. Re-set issues. Not to mention cost!!! These COULD all be overcome by practice (except cost). I just have NOT made gaff management a priority.

It just feels so good to have a pocket full of halves here and and a english Penny over there and I'm always set (and re-set for that matter).
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
leefoley3
View Profile
Elite user
Texas
402 Posts

Profile of leefoley3
As some of you have stated, I feel that gaffs have their place if used at the right time, etc. Relying soley on them will get you nowhere in the long run. Just my opinion. Smile
In December of '06 I was diagnosed with a very rare cancer, Dermatofibrosarcoma Protuberans. One in a million people worldwide are diagnosed with this type of cancer annually. Sarcomas account for 1% of all cancers. Knowledge is power!
David Neighbors
View Profile
V.I.P.
4857 Posts

Profile of David Neighbors
Hi Frank,
That What I have been Saying! You never Use gaffs Just becase Thay Are Easier! But becase Thay Make The Magic look More Magical!
And Gaff Management is not easy It Takes As Much work As A Sleight To make it look like you just handleing real coins! And as I have said before The When to use gaffs is also not easy to Learn!That's Why I said To Learn Your Sleight of Hand Frist! David Stone Said Something Ineresting To A Friend of mine At F.F.F.F. 2 years ago! He Said " I not good enough to use gaffs yet!" I think that tell's the tell! Learn your Sleight's Frist And your Gaffs Latter! Then you can all ways do something with anything someone hands you!
The Old Masters Use to say " The Only one Who can get away with the Judicious use of A gaff is someone who doesn't need one" Ok Thanks Man!

Best David Neighbors
The Coinjurer
David Neighbors



The Coinjurer

www.coinjurer.com
doug brewer
View Profile
V.I.P.
1140 Posts

Profile of doug brewer
Darn it - I'm getting in this conversation late. Though not my favorite thing, most of my "purist" situations occur when I'm handed 3 coins and asked to "do something". However, a good coin magician should be able to handle this. To me, this is what a "purist" is - they use only the coins you see. An extra coin would not fall under a purist definition in my book. But this is all semantics. My all-time favorite combination of gaff/ungaffed coins is two coins and a shell. Unbelievable things can happen with this simple set. BTW, who are all these people you guys are working for that are grabbing your coins? I almost never have this happen. I think you are all getting paranoid. To me it's just as bad getting busted with an extra coin or a stack of Chinese coins (though I've never exposed a shell - eek!)

Come Curtis. Come Kanoa. Embrace your gaffs. Feel the power.

I want POS 3 to have nothing but shells, double-sided coins, and sticky tape for every routine. Okay? Smile
Kainoa
View Profile
Elite user
NewArk, Delaware
424 Posts

Profile of Kainoa
We're not paranoid; we're just purists....and you should all stop using classic palm as well. Smile
Isramagia
View Profile
Regular user
Bayamon, Puerto Rico
114 Posts

Profile of Isramagia
It certainlly isn't an either/or, black/white issue for me. I am enjoying and learning from Doug's book and POS1 and 11 and Reed's Knucklebusters 1,2 and 3, and also Dr. Rubenstein's and many more artist material both past and present. I do believe Treoy Hoosier and Gary Kurtz are purist but most of all I love the pure magic I experience when I see wonderfull and beautifull routines with or sans gaffs or extra coins. Smile
Izzy
Bob Kohler
View Profile
Special user
704 Posts

Profile of Bob Kohler
I personally love seeing sleight of hand magic where the moves have been practiced, the sequences thought through and rehearshed until perfected. Bill Goodwin comes to mind. I remember when I first witnessed Bill card work, he tipped a routine to me and I was astonished that I'd completely missed seven moves.

I also believe that the use of gaffs requires the same amount of practice, thought and rehearsal that sleights demand to be effective. The problems are different, but the attention to detail is the same.

I prefer to first decide what the effect to the audience is, then find the best method to make them believe what you wanted them to witness. If a move is the best answer, use it. If a gaff is the quantum leap, by all means integrate it.

To me, being polarized in either the total gaff or total move direction is constraining. The fun for me is achieving the final effect no matter what the solution turns out to be. Usually the best solutions involved sleights, a gaff, good choreography, timing and direction. When all of these things come together you will fool everybody.
www.bobkohlermagic.com

Home of the BK Pro Line
joseph
View Profile
Eternal Order
Please ignore my
17149 Posts

Profile of joseph
Curtis
You should name Palms III the Coinevator. Smile
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Einstein)...
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Purist in coin magic? (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.2 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL