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CAROLINI Special user 607 Posts 
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First I apologize for creating a new post of a closed topic. But after printing 46 pages of the previous post to read at my leisure I just had to make one simple reply. Would it have made a difference if Grey had begun the program by saying "ladies and gentlemen, I will now present my interpretation of Darren Brown's performance of " somthing wicked this way comes"? Is there an effect that anyone of us performs that has not been previously been done by someone else one way or another? If not then why are so many anxious to get the latest effect by or from whoever? How many magicians have sawed a lady in half? Have they stolen an effect? Since this is a forum of opinions then please accept mine too. Thank you.
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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Carolini:
No one disputes anyone's right to perform any effect or material, or indeed any scripting of said effects, if that material is commercially marketed. If you pay for the rights to perform it, it's fair game. Derren Brown didn't sell the performance rights to any of his SOMETHING WICKED presentations. He and Andy Nyman, the co-writers of Derren's SOMETHING WICKED show, have not offered to sell the rights to their scripts. I trust that you see the difference between buying material for performance, as opposed to taking it from someone without purchasing the rights or asking permission. In the Grey case, not only were the presentations of the effects copied, along with the scripting, staging and jokes and bits of business, but Grey copied the name of Brown's show, along with Brown's press reviews, and presented them as his own. In the world of professional show business and theater, that is unacceptable. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Garrad Elite user 446 Posts
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I have a couple of questions:- To what degree's would you need to change a routine in order to make it acceptable?
What if you had designed and scripted a routine and then saw something very similar done by another pro i.e Mr Brown, should you now stop doing a routine that you believed was created as original?
You might say reality is the result of complex negotiations between the observer and the observed. But that is simply a point of view.
Many Thanks Garrad |
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salsa_dancer Inner circle 1935 Posts
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Why bring this back up again? He was clearly in the wrong, there is no doubt or discussion about it really, he didn't use a marketed effect in his act he used a whole act and concept. As Entity said, he even stole his press cuttings.
If you have a routine that you have developed that is in use by a top performer, and you haven't gone out of your way to emulate them, then I don't see any issue with doing it. However, you will have to suffer being compared to them as you do it. Also, it is DErren not DArren. Life is all in the details. |
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-07-06 17:20, Garrad wrote: Yeah, you absolutely should stop doing the routine. I am not sure why everybody fails to understand the business aspect of show business, but it is there. I'll offer up a deal to anybody who doesn't think this is a big deal, instead of a muscial called "Cats", do one called "Dogs" but keep everything else the same and see how long before you are served with legal notices. If you don't get one, I'll admit I was wrong and you'll have blockbuster on your hands. Or maybe a movie or book called "Gone With The Breeze". Seriously, this is all old discussions both here and in terms of every other aspect of show business (barring comedy, which is a different discussion, but with the same results). Why are we discussing this? Because somebody completely ripped somebody else off and some are trying to theorize how they can do it a little less blatantly? Please, just drop the subject and direct you minds into creating something original. But, back to the original question. If you worked hard to come up with what you think to be original and it isn't... well, life's tough. Personally, I came up with the internet, the wheel, fire, and screws. Do I get royalties? No. Can I claim I created these things? No. Once again, very cut and dry. If I sit at home and come up with a movie plot exactly like that to, say, Hostel, can I make it? Of course not. Common sense prevails here, if you aren't first then you really don't have a leg to stand on when you talk about creating something original because, frankly, it isn't. As is life. -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Jerome Finley V.I.P. SLC 3419 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-07-06 17:20, Garrad wrote: This is a great question. I feel there are many different approaches, so I will share via my experience. I've created and developed a full routine called, "Moonshine". It entails manipulating celestial bodies, the stars and planets, reversing eclipses, appearing UFO's etc. Months ago, Dale Hildebrant contacted me. He has also developed a routine along these same lines and in some portions, they draw upon the same methods. So, what to do? First things first, we sent each other our routines to examine. Together, we pointed out everything similar and everything different. We each felt that there was no issue at hand and that we would simply acknowledge and credit each other in our respective works. His routine will appear in his benefit ebook, "Winners" and mine in the forthcoming work with Paolo Cavalli, "The Sumerian Mosaic". They were/are independent creations which turned out similar in some ways. No harm, no foul. These things happen (I was glad to know I'm in good company  ).
So, what I learned was if something like this happens again, that I would contact or (hopefully) expect to be contacted by another creator for open discussion (& permission)if necessary. Another thing that I believe is good etiquette is in using personal/professional touches employed by another performer. If somebody shares something with you, or you see it used, it is NOT okay to bite, borrow or steal that touch or presentation! (This is just my own take and opinions and are by no means infallible.) Of course, this should be common knowledge (I feel). When people have shared their professional touches for a routine, effect, demonstration or presentation/scripting, etc., if it is something you would LIKE to possibly incorporate, CONTACT THAT PERSON AND ASK PERMISSION!!! It is not ok to just start doing it!!! And, if that person does give you the green light, at least give them appropriate thanks and an agreement that you would not use their material and touches under the same roof if you ever happen to find yourselves working together or sharing the same space (lectures, conventions, tradeshows, etc.) It's a common coutesy and common sense, but I feel it is often overlooked. I don't necessarily think that you must STOP doing something, but that you should refrain until you have appropriate permission, blessings and the favor of the creator and additional touches we seek to use. If in doubt, check it out! Peace, Jerome.
"Join my update list here!" http://eepurl.com/uE3Jf
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brainchild Loyal user Ideological Bigot 259 Posts
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Jerome,
That was a very interesting piece of reading. I think your approach is a very intelligent one that I respect. That being said, I don't think it always applies. |
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Marc Spelmann Special user London U.K. 666 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-07-06 18:18, Carlos the Great wrote: In regards to your first statement 'You should stop doing an effect even if you came up with it independently" This is a tricky area, as I have worked on a presentation to close my show for well over 4 years, I recently went to see a show with a mind reader and his closer was very simular.. Now a couple of things, this performer is not an inventor, he is an excellent performer. I would and will not stop performing my closer, naturally I would make sure our scripting and presentations differed but I have every right to perform my hard work over the last 4 years.. If we decided that if another performer does an effect that is similar to ours we shouldn't do it, then we wouldn't be doing anything, as we all predict words, cards, drawings, see things blindfolded, locate drawings etc etc.. I should point out that I have focused on Carlos's opening statement which I have probably taken out of context. I know what Carlos means but it is not black and white, there are shades of grey (excus the punn).. Copying effects and presentations word for word, gesture for gesture and action for action is awful and lets the art down. There are so many ways to be creative with what we do, be inspired don't be a thief.. Spelmann
It's not goodbye, just see you later...
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piefke666 New user germany 83 Posts
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Quote:
Copying effects and presentations word for word, gesture for gesture and action for action is awful and lets the art down. Then yozu are an actor who plays a mentalist - not a "true mentalist"! |
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Looch Inner circle Off by 3353 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-07-07 10:27, piefke666 wrote: is that aimed @ spelmann?
Mentalism Products: https://www.readmymind.co.uk/ Learn Mentalism with the Pro's: https://www.mymind.rocks
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Harry Lucas Regular user Europe 128 Posts
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I see the ambiguity...
I did understand Piefke666 in the way that he agrees with Marc and 'one who copies effects, etc was an actor playing a mentalist.' |
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CAROLINI Special user 607 Posts
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Are we not all actors pretending to be mentalists?
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Jerome Finley V.I.P. SLC 3419 Posts
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I'm not an actor. I'm a mentalist.
If anything, let what I do be called art. Best, J.
"Join my update list here!" http://eepurl.com/uE3Jf
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 188 Posts
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The legal issues involved in "stealing" someone else's work are not black and white, as others have already pointed out. "Stealing" is not always bad. For example, how many magicians have you heard say something like, "Watch as my fingers never leave my hand". Bobo came up with this line, and now lots of magicians use it. Is this "stealing"? Sure. Is it wrong? No. Is it impolite? Well, that depends. When Bobo first introduced it then it would be considered wrong or impolite to use it. However, as time goes on, then it became acceptable.
The level of stealing by Grey is definitely wrong. I am not a lawyer, but I have been involved in lawsuits so I know a little bit about what happens. Regarding copyright cases, the underlying question is: Would a common person consider the act stealing? If the answer to your question is yes, then you are probably overstepping your bounds and should rethink what you are doing. -Rick
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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Garrad Elite user 446 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-07-06 18:18, Carlos the Great wrote: By your reckoning if you created the act first it then belongs to you, is that even if you are not a well known pro. There are a lot of routines that follow very similar plot lines by their very nature. How different must we be for it to be called different? How different is enough? Oh and no I am not justifying what Mr Grey did. What he did was wrong. My question does not relate and is different entirely.
You might say reality is the result of complex negotiations between the observer and the observed. But that is simply a point of view.
Many Thanks Garrad |
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Dale A. Hildebrandt Special user 637 Posts
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Hello,
Independent creations happen more often than most people would probably think. It's when two people can be polite and civil about it that things progress in magic instead of staying stagnant. The case cited about myself and Jerome shows this to be quite true. We had similar approaches in some areas, and different approaches in other areas. But, we came to a polite agreement about how to handle this case of independent discovery. Nobody in their right mind can justify copying word for word someone else's show, and even using their press clippings in what amounts to a fraudulent representation. If we were discussing comedy, for example, we wouldn't even be having such a discussion. Just think what would happpen if someone started calling themselves George Karlin (sic) and did all of the real George Carlin's material word-for-word in a comedy special. It would be recognized as outright plagarism. If it's marketed, if it was given to you, if you sought and obtained permission then things are completely different. The material is being offered, in that case, for usage by other people. As for sawing a lady in half, mentioned by the original poster to this thread, it was indeed stolen. And that theft quickly diminished the value of the original inventor's hard work and ingenuity. Magicians should not strive to be cookie cutter performers of other people's materials, especially when those materials are not offered to other performers as performance pieces for usage. This has been my humble opinion. Sincerely, Dale A. Hildebrandt |
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pyro Regular user 120 Posts
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Who is this "grey" person?
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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Old news, best forgotten.
I'm sure he's seen the error of his ways and is now an upstanding citizen and student. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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piefke666 New user germany 83 Posts
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Quote:
is that aimed @ spelmann? No! Quote:
I see the ambiguity... Right! 
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Anabelle Special user 951 Posts
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I don't know who Grey is either, but I too believe that there is no reason at all to be copying someone's act word for word, or even close. I'm big on presentation, and with a little creativity, there's no reason you can't come up with something original with the most known of effects. For instance, I've seen and read different performances of the Invisible Deck, different stories, different angles, different variations, different approaches. Even with the exact same method, there's still plenty you can do. Another for instance, and I don't want to sound too weird here, but if I was doing a lady in half routine, right off the top of my head I would talk about physics and how things are not really solid at all when you get down to tiny detail and end up calling the machine something like the "NOTHING IS SOLID MACHINE" invented by the now mysteriously dead Dr. Lisey decades ago, who's curious invention was forgotten ... or perhaps hidden ... until NOW!!!!
Anabelle |
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Posted: Jul 6, 2007 07:36 pm 
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