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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Anabelle Space and Time Experiment #1 (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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JohnWells
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Anabelle: I do not have Tsunami, though I hear good things about it. I do have K.E.N.T., and would suggest that the statistics involved, while similar, are perceived entirely differently with a body of 52 possibilities, out of a which a limited set is used for purposes of selection, than in a body of only three. Having said that...

What did slip my mind in my eagerness to add my two cents (1, that the topic seemed to produce a level of venom vastly out of keeping with the actual matter involved and 2, that I simply didn't buy the effect), was that you did provide a very interesting presentation for an effect that, while..what's a good phrase?...is under-developed, has the possibility to be made into something worthy of all acceptance. The critical gaze was leveled too early and, it seems, managed to miss the point. Please accept my hublest apologies.
Tony Iacoviello
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I hope you don't mind a few observations:

1. To the best of my knowledge, none of the naysayers on this thread have ever attempted to perform anything here.

2. Every person who has attempted to perform on the Café that has posted to this thread has been supportive.

I'm not saying that those critics on this thread have no real room to talk, I'm not saying that the postings here are representative of their egos, nor am I saying that insulting posts placed here are representative of nasty and immature people.

What I am saying is, Anabelle, consider the sources.

Tony
John C
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Quote:
On 2007-07-11 10:31, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
I hope you don't mind a few observations:

1. To the best of my knowledge, none of the naysayers on this thread have ever attempted to perform anything here.

2. Every person who has attempted to perform on the Café that has posted to this thread has been supportive.

I'm not saying that those critics on this thread have no real room to talk, I'm not saying that the postings here are representative of their egos, nor am I saying that insulting posts placed here are representative of nasty and immature people.

What I am saying is, Anabelle, consider the sources.

Tony





Well said!

J
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splice
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Quote:
On 2007-07-11 10:31, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
1. To the best of my knowledge, none of the naysayers on this thread have ever attempted to perform anything here.

2. Every person who has attempted to perform on the Café that has posted to this thread has been supportive.



To the best of my knowledge, if I perform an effect and my audience does not go along with it, the highest praise from the best performers does not change its reception and my goal of entertaining or mystifying is not met.

But I do agree with your prompt to "consider the audience". Again, a message board full of virtual magicians (and I mean that in more ways than one) will not react at all the same as a live audience that you can manage. I may be repeating myself here, but I think you found out important data about the effect you tried. It's about selecting the right effect for the right audience (or perhaps the other way around).

I wouldn't dare perform the 21-card trick at a magician's convention, but it can still play for the lay audience, once in a while.
Roger Kelly
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I can't hep but admire your 'bottle' Anabelle. It's what sets you out from the 'also-rans' in this place. Three cheers for you and keep your posts coming. I've always found them of value.

Quick question though - Will this effect work with UK coins? Smile

Roger
Dr Spektor
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Ahem - check out the 21 Card trick when presented as in the BOOK OF THOTH (Minch) - suddenly it becomes mystical....

effects are delivered in the presentation. I do the "Magician" effect listed above often and it kills... and weirdly... even when people recognize the 21 similarities... the presentation throws it off (plus I added in a kicker anyway)...

Methods can be further cloaked by a really great presentation.
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Slim King
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Doing experiments over the Café is FUN and if you are a Party Pooper then please don't come to the Party....Easy enough? Smile
Oh..and I hate to tip this about the 21 trick, but it can actually be a 27 trick and ALSO Card at any Number (No slights needed, as if I knew any) Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
splice
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Quote:
On 2007-07-11 13:05, Slim King wrote:
Doing experiments over the Café is FUN and if you are a Party Pooper then please don't come to the Party....Easy enough? Smile


You can b*tch all you want about party poopers, they won't just up and disappear.

You can learn to handle and even preempt party poopers so your routines go more smoothly. Annabelle, have you thought about doing this experiment over the phone instead of a message board? You wouldn't have a hard copy of your statements on odds for people to pick over in their spare time (of which many have too much of). You would blur the outline of the routine as people would then have to describe what happenned from their recollection (and that's how you can make miracles out of nothing). You would be able to manage the audience more effectively, and perhaps even convince them of being wrong if they bring up the real odds. A forceful persona who speaks with obvious authority on the subject of maths and statistics may be able to convince a lone person of something completely wrong, whereas the same type of persona on a message board where everyone can see black on white everything that has been said, and can reference mathematics sites, sites on how to calculate odds, etc. may not be able to do the same. There are a number of advantages to the phone approach. I have noticed how many people do experiments over the phone, I think they are on to something.

Just a few thoughts.

Dr Spektor: I agree that presentation is everything. Perhaps you missed my point, which was that one presentation is not necessarily equally good in two completely different settings (live, out on the street with a lay audience vs. a message board full of magicians).
entity
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I think that in this case the presentation could have been made, and THEN the floor opened for comments and suggestions. It was an experiment amongst fellow magicians/mentalists, and I don't expect that the original poster expected anyone to believe any or all of the premise.

This forum is looked at by some as a "safe" environment in which to discuss, share and experiment. Let people finish their presentations. If they ask for reactions or criticism, then fire away. But don't stand up in the middle of the show and shout out that you've figured out the method. It serves no useful purpose.

- entity
John C
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Quote:
On 2007-07-10 17:21, Anabelle wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-07-10 12:11, chichi711 wrote:
I have enjoyed most of this thread. Anabelle. I hope you decide to do the test with cards. I would enjoy reading it.


No way I'm getting into this again. I was trying to play with a simple routine (by Bob Farmer) using my presentation with some mental misdirection, nothing earth shattering, nothing super amazing, just having fun, trying to possibly entertain a few people here, and this is the mess that came of it. I'll just watch Slim King or Jack who do this sort of thing and apparently can handle themselves better. I'd hate to think it has something to do with me being a woman as someone suggested above.

Anabelle


Anabelle,

When you attempt something like this on a public forum you HAVE to be willing to take the good and bad feedback. Filter it out the same way you handle hecklers in a live performance. Don't give up!

John
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HollyMental
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Honestly, the people who keep complaining about “party poopers” (what a childish term) are the ones ruining the effect because you can’t let it go. There have been far too many posts griping about Arnon’s one post.

Arnon thought he was helping. He thought Annabelle legitimately had her math mixed up. He then apologized. That should have been the end of it. But people who just don’t like Arnon decided to drag it out and paint themselves as heroes or something. Arnon’s post would have long been forgotten had it not been for people trying to provoke problems.

Quote:
On 2007-07-09 04:49, Xiqual wrote:
I hope Arnon and HollyMental are sleeping.


Right here is where the problem began. You need look no further than this smart aleck post to see where it all went askew. Here is someone trying to drag both Arnon and myself into a problem that wasn’t there. Then, long after the entire Arnon issue was over, troublemakers continue to try and incite more debate.

Most people who have not yet read this tread will simply read the first post and make of it what they will. Everyone doesn’t read every post and this effect is far from ruined. People need to let the whole Arnon thing go and get over it already.


Holly
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splice
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Quote:
On 2007-07-11 13:51, entity wrote:
Let people finish their presentations. If they ask for reactions or criticism, then fire away. But don't stand up in the middle of the show and shout out that you've figured out the method. It serves no useful purpose.


I agree. In fact I didn't speak at all until Annabelle stopped the presentation. Nor do I support those that did.

But as a performer, I would think and consider how to handle the situation when it arises, and how to prevent it in the future. This can lead to modifying the routine and its presentation, and accomplish the same effect with less of a chance of someone piping up in the middle of the presentation.

Take it however you like. One way makes the audience responsible for the failure of the effect, the other allows you to perhaps grow as a performer. Just my opinion. And since that's not worth anything to anyone I'm sure, this is where I stop replying to the thread. PM me if you want to discuss any of this further.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2007-07-11 14:07, HollyMental wrote:
Honestly, the people who keep complaining about “party poopers” (what a childish term) are the ones ruining the effect because you can’t let it go. There have been far too many posts griping about Arnon’s one post.

Arnon thought he was helping. He thought Annabelle legitimately had her math mixed up. He then apologized. That should have been the end of it. But people who just don’t like Arnon decided to drag it out and paint themselves as heroes or something. Arnon’s post would have long been forgotten had it not been for people trying to provoke problems.



Smile

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Tony Iacoviello
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John:

Aren’t all of these posts, mine, yours, and the one you reference just continuing the situation? When one posts and complains that continued posts are perpetuating the issue, isn't that poster just as much to blame (if not more so as he/she recognizes the issue)?

And the beat goes on...

Tony
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Crikey I can think of a fair few of those types round here...its like logging into an episode of fraggle rock
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Roger Kelly
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Jeez folks - feel the love....

Back to the thread - Anabelle - some of us want more! Come back please Smile
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2007-07-11 14:17, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
John:

Aren’t all of these posts, mine, yours, and the one you reference just continuing the situation? When one posts and complains that continued posts are perpetuating the issue, isn't that poster just as much to blame (if not more so as he/she recognizes the issue)?

And the beat goes on...

Tony


I can't speak for anyone but myself, Tony, but I believe that I have kept a healthy respect for the experiment and all that has gone on around it. I don't know what motivates other people, whether malice, misunderstanding or something else. I like to believe that most of the disagreements here are from misunderstanding.

On the main topic, I am still intrigued by the assumptions we frequently make about what our audiences believe. And I hope that that discussion will continue.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Arnon
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When I perform, either at a gig or informally at the Castle, I won't present an effect unless I believe that the most brilliant person watching could not figure out the method, whether because the method is impenetrable, the misdirection is so strong, the presentation completely blankets the method, etc.

As a trial lawyer, I think the same way about juries. Most juries in the U.S., based on my personal experience in New York and California, are not very intelligent. There are many reasons for that, including how the pool is drawn, who is not clever enough to get out of jury duty, etc. Nevertheless, and contrary to the opinion of many other lawyers, I for one will NOT assume that my particular jury is less than swift. I for one much prefer to give the jurors credit for their intelligence, and also their COMBINED intelligence, to be able to distinguish between faulty and valid reasoning. I for one strive to select a jury that will be THE MOST INTELLIGENT that they can possibly be, because my presentation is geared not only to the jurors who have traits that are favorable to my side of the particular case, but also that will be able to follow my reasoning. Even if I fail to get the jury I'd want, I still PLAY TO THEIR INTELLIGENCE besides their emotions.

In the case of magic or mentalism, perhaps I want to pre-empt the possibility that someone in the audience will "bust me." When I was 7 through 11, I got busted way too many times by intelligent adults. Perhaps I don't want that to ever happen again to me.

Now that I have the eyes and mind of a magician for decades, it is hard for me to judge how a "lay" audience will react. Perhaps I give them TOO MUCH CREDIT, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Magic and Mentalism, to me, must not only be entertaining, but also mystifying.

I'm glad that Magnus highlighted this positive aspect of this thread.
:D
Arnon
Xiqual
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Quote:
On 2007-07-11 14:07, HollyMental wrote:
Honestly, the people who keep complaining about “party poopers?(what a childish term) are the ones ruining the effect because you can’t let it go. There have been far too many posts griping about Arnon’s one post.

Arnon thought he was helping. He thought Annabelle legitimately had her math mixed up. He then apologized. That should have been the end of it. But people who just don’t like Arnon decided to drag it out and paint themselves as heroes or something. Arnon’s post would have long been forgotten had it not been for people trying to provoke problems.

Quote:
On 2007-07-09 04:49, Xiqual wrote:
I hope Arnon and HollyMental are sleeping.


Right here is where the problem began. You need look no further than this smart aleck post to see where it all went askew. Here is someone trying to drag both Arnon and myself into a problem that wasn’t there. Then, long after the entire Arnon issue was over, troublemakers continue to try and incite more debate.

Most people who have not yet read this tread will simply read the first post and make of it what they will. Everyone doesn’t read every post and this effect is far from ruined. People need to let the whole Arnon thing go and get over it already.


Holly





Holly,
For once you are right.
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
rick727
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Wow, I leave the board for a day or two (work calls) and the flame wars start! I think we should rename this board "The Peyton Place for Mentalists".

Anabelle: When I first read your original post the method was extremely transparent. However, your wording was carefully constructed so as to taint the true nature of the odds into your favor. Even though I knew your odds were incorrect I played along anyway. If you reread my original response I added a little joke (appearantly too little of a joke) that in my second set of numbers I used double-headed quarters.

Arnon: I am also a math geek (B.S. Aeronautical Engineering; M.S. Mechanical Engineering) so I saw the flawed math right away. However, I too have been known to falsify mathematical odds via patter in order to tilt experiments in my favor. I have a "poker chip prediction" that I do. I make the prediction in advance and allow the spectator to select one poker chip out of 8. The odds of getting it right are 1 in 8 (actually, it is 100% Smile) but I tell the audience that it is "virtually impossible."

The original trick was cute, but not strong. Overall, you did a nice job Anabelle.

-Rick
Practice what you present.

Present what you practice.
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