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Energizer
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Sorry Ross, but I'm not really up to speed on Alder's work, although I could read up on him tonight. Actually applying his work to an effect might be a bit more of a stretch.

I want someone to go Lacanian on us.
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Virungan
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Well, a book test handled in the right way is a form of Lacanian 're-reading'...
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
Energizer
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Alas, I don't know anything about Lacan's work so I don't know what you're talking about ...

I guess I'll just have to go and sit right down and do me some book-learnin'.



You know it dawned on me earlier that physiological thought reading or pendulum effects are potentially psychodynamic in their presentation. But how to make it blatantly and explicitly psychodynamic ... that is the question ...

Any suggestions anyone ...?
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
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Lacanian....we thought you meant Laconian. Then we could have recommended Isso Liwok's Father of All Book Tests (with Joyce's Finnegans Wake) or Isnot Liwok's Divine Child of All Book Tests (with Robert Graves' White Goddess).

--Lucia Von Franz
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Dr Spektor
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I'm a psychiatrist - I'm schooled in the techniques of group interpersonal psychotherapies and a variety of others... if you think people are doing things during interpersonal interactions totally consiously, good luck! I actually train big business corp. VIPS and teams in the area on what to pick up, how to facillitate and lead effectively based on these things. As for mentalism and such - most cuing involves directing the spec in a way he or she isn't consious of what you are actually doing.... from hypnotic suggestions to just positioning them in certain ways or getting them to agree with you with a simple head nod.

Hopefully, the person facillitating is conscious and using strategic techniques - but most be reflective of what is being stirred within him or her while doing so.

One day, I'll get around to writing all the above in way much more detail Smile....

As for cold reading - check out any psychodynamic formulation of a person and you'll find 90% of good cold reading ties right into it. Read some books like Ian Rowland's and you'll see how good psychotherapists become natural "cold"/warm readers with ease.

With respect, I'm basing this one not effects that use Psychodynamics as a McGuffin, but actually the way they effect cognitions, emotions and behaviours.

Lastly, the RAS/Limbic system etc. all tie up to the cerebrum... you see, thoughts get effected by chemical changes in the brain - psychotherapy and neurochemistry go hand in hand. e.g. It is ancient thought that likes to make the mind/brain dichotimy.. almost like mentalism/magic Smile.... but in fact, all should mutually support each other if it has any basis in fact. e.g. Cogntive Behavioural Therapy etc... plus all the reseach showing how psychotherapy is as effective as certain medications is mild /mod cases of depression / anxiety etc... seen also on PET scans and so on.

However, If you are just looking for effects/presentations supporting old myths of psychoanalysis or just for flavour, I can see why my contributions may seem strange. So, good luck with your quest, I shall now, with respect, bow out and go back to the shadows.
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Energizer
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Thanks Dr Spector (I thought that that was just a stage name!)

As a humble psychology graduate and post graduate student, I appreciate you explaining your previous post to us lesser mortals (and I'd insert a smiley face her to denote an absence of sarcasm but cannot figure out how, dammit!).

It is not that I want to perpetuate old myths or weird science (and please good people, let's not begin to discuss the scientific status and/or worth of psychodynamics). I appreciate that many of the stories that psychodynamics tells are frankly a bit bizarre and lacking in credibility

It is more about the flavour, as you rightly say, but the flavour of modern psychodynamics, which I understand to be a vibrant and progressive research program. Psychodynamics offers social psychologists a unique set of concepts, a language and a technique (psychoanalysis) - for studying subjective experience (not to mention behaviour!). It has theories about the driving forces behind social life. It can describe and investigate the processes by which the social environment 'gets inside us'. Psychodynamics can explore the content of our internal worlds - the web of meanings that constitute our psychic realities and hence make us who we are. So it is a great tool for social psychologists to examine the way individuals construe and internalize the social world and are constituted by it. It is this view of psychodynamics as a form of social psychology that I want to communicate in some routines - the constant and profound presence and influence of other people, whether in the reality of the external world or in our internal worlds.

For the sake of clarity, everyone, psychoanalysis, strictly, refers to the work of Freud, his theories and clinical psycoanalysis. Psychodynamics is a much broader term that hopefully indicates that hings have moved on since his time. The only reason I used Freud's name in the title of this thread was to avoid frightening people off with unfamiliar and lengthy words.

As for the non-existent dichotomy between mind and brain - to be honest, I'm not so hot on my biological psychology ... and I appreciate that both are mutually interdependent and interpenetrate ... but ... as far as I am aware (and my knowledge is clearly very limited) ... the language of psychoanalysis does not easily translate to to the language of biology or vice versa ... although hopefully one day they will. That's the reason why I'm suggesting that neuroscience-based presentations for our routines should be posted in a different thread - so things are divided neatly, like in my text books ... Ha ha. No, not really - it's because we'll end up discussing two almost entirely different presentational styles for our mentalism.

I apologize if my post is a bit long, boring and/or waffly.

Anyway - keep those routines or comments coming in folks!
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Energizer
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Why can't I get these smiley faces working. It's really annoying.

Just read my last post. Suppose that last big paragraph of my previous post should read as follows.

As for the non-existent dichotomy between mind and brain - to be honest, I'm not so hot on my biological psychology ... and I appreciate that both are mutually interdependent and interpenetrate, or to be much more accurate, are one and the same thing ... but ... as far as I am aware (and my knowledge is clearly very limited) ... the language of psychoanalysis does not easily translate to to the language of biology or vice versa, even though both discuss similar phenomena (with biology focusing more on the individual and psychodynamics focusing more on the individual, relationships and groups)... although hopefully one day they will. That's the reason why I'm suggesting that neuroscience-based presentations for our routines should be posted in a different thread - so things are divided neatly, like in my text books ... Ha ha. No, not really - it's because we'll end up discussing two almost entirely different presentational styles for our mentalism.

Thanks. Don't want to look stupid do I?

PS - Also just noticed I spelled Dr Spektor's name incorrectly on my previous post. I apologize for being so rude.
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Corona Smith
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Is so Is not so.
coupcoupdaddy
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Is not so as is is.
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Corona Smith
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What happened to the attempted umlauts?
coupcoupdaddy
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Had to send them to Bill Palmer. He collects 'em you know.
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Energizer
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What IS an umlaut?
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Virungan
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Look up-words.... you might see one.... especially if you're feeling Teutonic
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
Energizer
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Oh yeah - never thought of that.
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
coupcoupdaddy
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Are there pre-Jungian slips? Papyrus billets? Sly offense mechanisms lurking beneath the indexed togas of turban legends?
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Energizer
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Sly offense mechanisms? Now you're talking!

Psychodynamics is well equipped to discuss covert aggression (and even overt aggression) in a way that cognitive psychology or biological psychology are not.

In psychodynamic theory, what is said and done by individuals is heard and interpreted by the analyst as though it is intended (unconsciously but perhaps also consciously) to have an effect. An assessment of people's speech and actions (and speech acts!) and their impact on others is a central part of the process of understanding those people.

Gotta be a routine there somewhere ...
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Dr Spektor
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Covert aggression? Like

"As a humble psychology graduate and post graduate student, I appreciate you explaining your previous post to us lesser mortals (and I'd insert a smiley face her to denote an absence of sarcasm but cannot figure out how, dammit!)."

Nice Smile

If you want to be thinking of yourself as a lesser mortal, don't blame me - that was your statement.

(Oh, a Smiley face would just make it more covert Smile)...

...

Here is a real cool covert smiley Smile

Lastly, if you do want to put in emoticons, look at the bottom of this page... just above submit reply see "options" and where it says disable SMilies on this post...click on the highlighted Smilies and it will show you how.
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Energizer
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Thanks for the tip on the emoticons Dr Spektor! Most kind. But it's still not happening ... So the pop-up window appears when you click on the thingy you pointed out ... then what? I can't drag and drop (sad face here).

Anyway, to continue the general discussion - I don't really think of myself as a lesser mortal - except when I'm comparing myself to psychiatrists. I think maybe a lot of psychologists feel inferior to psychiatrists ... maybe ... or at least one or two do.

No covert aggression intended (at least as far as I'm aware of at a conscious level)... honest!
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Hoff Man
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Olly,

I apologize if one of the comments I made early on caused things to go off topic.
I was just making a meaningless aside and in no way intended to digress the thread into the area of neuroscience.

But from what I’ve continued to read I would suggest what many others have already stated, and that is to go somewhat light with the intricacies of what it is you are trying to translate into your performance.

And listen to what Dr. Spektor has to say. Not many people can give you the help you are looking for in a down to earth way and then, just as quickly, approach the same topic from the Twilight Zone.

But then again … it’s all connected.
Isn’t it?

Steve
Mentalisten
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Came across this on Paul Brooks' site:-

'More than Freud' - Simulate being able to predict human behaviour and movements, clearly demonstrating an astounding knowledge of psychology.

Its an effect that is included in his '14th Step to Mentalism' book. May be worth looking into.

Ross
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