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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Bill:
Since your post was addressed to me, let me answer your points as clearly as I can. As I noted in my earlier post, my comments were regarding your APPARENT belief system, evidenced by your own statements, such as your not "believing" in disclaimers, because you think that they have a negative impact on a performer's entertainment value. If you tell me that you believe something, it seems to me that I then have some knowledge of what you believe. I do not perform as 'something I profess not to be', as you put it. I perform as a Psychological Illusionist, and that's what I present. I don't believe any one here, myself included, has said that a disclaimer has to be so specific that it eats into the performance or the enjoyment of the audience. I don't know where you're getting that from. It would be silly to do that. Which amateurs, exactly, are you talking about? I've made my full living as a Magician and then as a Mentalist for the past 30 years. Who here, amateur or professional, has said, as you state, that other performers MUST do anything? No one that I can see. What Max says or doesn't say isn't a concern to me. He was not a part of my post. Although, to say (as you did) that his disclaimer is ALMOST non-existent seems to be like saying someone is ALMOST not pregnant. Either it's there, or it's not. You ask me who I would be harming by not giving a disclaimer? Myself, first of all, since I prefer an honest relationship with my audience, and anything less would diminish the integrity of my Performance. My audience would be harmed, since I'd be lying to them about the nature of the performance (by the very act of doing a strong performance) by leading them to believe something I'd rather they didn't believe in. I think that it would also harming the profession of Mentalism, since I'd rather we separated ourselves from frauds, con men and those who want the audience to worship them as superhuman beings. But that's just me. I don't demand that anyone else feel the same way. I can, however, state my personal convictions and hope that others are influenced by what I say. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Before I started doing this full-time, I was fooling around at a party and did OOTW for one of the other people there. If I'd wanted to start a relgion at that point, I could have. And this was a card trick, for Pete's sake!
Ted Lesley is out of the business now, but his disclaimer, in its entirety follows: His disclaimer in German: His disclaimer in English: Disclaimers went into performers' repertoires to keep the fuzz off their backs and to keep them out of jail. Now, in most parts of the country, people have grown up enough that they know that we are not reading their minds. If I wanted to go back to work and make a fortune, I'd do Benny Hinn's gig. But it would leave a horrible taste in my mouth. I feel he is far more dishonest and harmful than any mentalist who works with or without a disclaimer.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
I'd appreciate your answering the questions I posed to you in my previous post, Bill. And here's one more: How long did you actually make your full living as a Mentalist? I was under the impression that you had another profession, from which you receive a pension. Am I mistaken?
Your point about the power of OOTW is what, exactly? That Mentalism is powerful? Ted Lesley is a wonderful creator of Mentalism products and routines. The fact that he is in financial straits despite the many books and product he's sold to Mentalists and Magicians over the years does not exactly auger well when holding him up as an example of those Performers who don't use a disclaimer. Modern Mentalists, unlike many psychics, don't have "the fuzz on their backs" as you put it, so those who make disclaimers these days do so for other reasons. Unless you tell them otherwise (and unless your performance is inept and dull) audiences will absolutely believe that you are reading their minds or thoughts through psychic abilities. Some will believe it even though you do tell them otherwise. Have you never listened to an audience at a the performance of an adept Mentalist? Interesting that you'd take the Benny Hinn route, even though it would leave a bad taste in your mouth. I'd have to agree with you that such a thing would be dishonest and harmful. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I earned my living for 30 years as a mentalist and a magician. I also translated a lot of books about mental magic, including one or two that I am sure you have on your shelves. I did many, many performances as a mentalist. I retired from performing because I have a much better income from other sources now, and what they are do not concern you one bit. But it is not a pension from my previous occupation.
Your asinine implication that Ted's financial straits may or may not be due to his lack of a disclaimer show your lack of knowledge of his situation. You should be ashamed of yourself for implying anything of the sort. Ted was hit with Parkinson's. He managed to continue performing on a limited basis until an accident landed him in the hospital. His brother and a friend of his thought he was going to die. So they sold all of his worldly goods, his stock, his library and the rights to all of his material to a magic dealer in Germany for a pittance. This paid off most of his debts, but when he survived and he was released from the hospital, he had to find a new flat and a new source of income. Ted's a tough cookie. He will survive. He has survived cancer, diabetes and Parkinson's. He won't be performing any more, but he will be writing, and I will be translating his material for him. As far as the amateurs concerned, read the first post in the thread. Psychological illusionist?
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
I don't care how effective a performer is if they aren't honest about the dishonesty inherent in the art. Thus experience at performing has no relevance to me regarding this issue. I judge this as an audience member, and I'm an expert at that.
Anabelle, I do expect that not everyone needs a disclaimer during their show, but I think that in the situation you described, you are right to call yourself a magician if pushed. Check out Derren Brown's disclaimer. I find that the majority of people agree with what I wrote in that post, and I have discussed this with lots of people in various walks of life, and followed this issue in magazines, television shows, and books, for 34 years. To put this in perspective, while a majority of people know that Uri Geller uses tricks, that same majority also knows that Uri Geller did, and still does, fool a sizable minority. And, you can imagine what the majority think of Uri Geller because of that. It might be better if you call yourself a "mind illusionist" or some similar clear title, as others have suggested. That way, you might not need to disclaim in the middle of your show. Personally, I like the approach Derren Brown used, and it hasn't seemed to hurt his career, and people are clearly still amazed by his performances. Anabelle, I admire you. I might like to see other people's shows who post here, but I know I'd like to see you perform.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Rocketeer Special user Westchester, NY 965 Posts |
I remember seeing Dunninger on TV when I was a kid. The only disclaimer I ever remember him using was something along the lines of "Any child of ten could do what I do with 20 years of experience."
And he also said "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, none will suffice." That doesn't exactly sound like a disclaimer to me.
I'm selling my hardcover autographed limited edition copy of Jerome Finley's "Thought Veil"
PM me for info. |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
The Piddingtons would just say.."You be the judge!"
This is the field of The Mystery Arts isn't it?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-21 21:19, Tom Cutts wrote: Hello. You're quoting the wrong part of my post. You should be quoting this part: "[Once I've said my disclaimer] the responsibility is no longer mine. It's hers. That is what my disclaimer is for." So although it's true that I don't want to encourage a belief system that I don't believe in, that's only part of it. I also want to absolve myself of any responsibility for what people believe having seen my show. I've explained the nature of the performance. The rest is up to them. That's the objective. Or rather, that's the part of the objective that I was focusing on given the nature of the discussion so far. There are other reasons too. Here they are: - I couldn't live with the lifestyle that goes with audiences believing I'm some sort of psychic. I don't want to deal with that. - I like to be, as Derren Brown would have it, "honest about my dishonesty". I feel it gives me a better relationship with my audience, especially with the sceptics who may no longer try quite so hard to "catch me out". People can relax and enjoy themselves a bit more. - It enhances the ambiguity. And this sits well with my own personal views of art, the best of which I believe is inherently ambiguous. So if I tell someone I'm not psychic, if I tell them I can't read minds and then do something that cannot possibly be explained any other way, where does it leave an audience? In a strange hinterland between what I've just told them and what they've just experienced. That's where I want them. That's where it starts getting interesting for me. So yeah. I think every performer of this art has to have a certain degree of contentedness being that "potential catalyst" we've talked about. You'd never sleep otherwise - you couldn't do it. I do feel that the performer has certain responsibilities to his audience, particularly if he's talented and convincing, simply because of how believable this stuff can be. But that shouldn't be the focal point of the act; for me, honesty about the deception is just part of the whole package. I do think everyone who performs mentalism should use disclaimers of some sort, because I feel it's what separates us, as entertainers, from the frauds and con men. But ultimately I can't be concerning myself too much with what everyone else is up to in the same way I can't be concerning myself too much with what the audience believes. I can have certain goals and ideals in mind. And then I can set out to achieve them. But that's all I can do really. It's all anyone can do, I suppose. The nature of performance means I'll never truly know if I ever got there.
Hello.
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Ed Mauve New user 76 Posts |
Compared to entertainment like movies and games, Magic may have altogether a very different experience. But try a look at example- Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown, how long has it amazed people even when published in form of a fiction novel. There was people went to all locations base from the novel just to search for the 'Truth' according to the novel. and all this events leads to a movie been made years after. Documentry on the subjects are been made for the hype mixing the line even more. The Novel is base on some research on the real world history, which is what makes it so popular in the 1st place, just as most Mentalism shows are base along the lines of fantasy/sci-fi and realism.
People likes to imagine, dream something impossible, along the lines maybe and what if. IMO, as long as its stated Entertainment along line of the show, its enough for a disclaimer already. Magic is suppose to be Magic, take that away, its nothing. As Audience, I don't like been reminded throughout the whole movie its only a movie example-when watching a horror movies like 'The Ring'. Anyway even if I know its a movie, my heart still pause the beat on the crawling out TV scene. If the performer stated this is only a show and not a psychic etc, its enough, either way, I don't look for disclaimer when going to most of the Shows. Only if there will be loud audio effects or too much lighting flashes, and where's the exit sign and the toilet at. -Ed |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
Working at Universal Studios, I've noticed one thing. When I'm riding one of the attractions some parents bring children that are too young...The Mummies, Skeletons and other Spooky Stuff is/are just too much for the child, so the whole way through the ride all you hear is..."Don't worry Johnny, IT'S NOT REAL, IT'S JUST A PLASTIC HEAD,IT'S JUST A PERSON DRESSED UP, IT'S FAKE BLOOD....IT'S NOT REAL!!!!"
This ruins it for EVERYONE. Same thing here
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-22 00:29, Bill Palmer wrote: It's for things like these ones that Max is still one of my long-time heroes!
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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Anabelle Special user 951 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-22 02:36, Bill Palmer wrote: I'm not for disclaimers being required at all and you almost repeated word for word the exact point of my question and some of the things I have written on here when you wrote: Quote:
On 2007-07-22 00:29, Bill Palmer wrote: Then entity wrote: Quote:
On 2007-07-22 01:04, entity wrote: You didn't use Max Maven's name exactly but you did say there was a huge list of successful working professionals who have disclaimers and since Max falls in that category, it can be assumed. Besides, you named Kreskin who you later admitted does things you don't like. A disclaimer being almost non-existent is also something I was trying to say regarding how vague some performers are (having your cake and eating it too) in calling themselves Mentalists (according to popular definition) when they don't want to be viewed as that, and mentioning vague disclaimers that leave people wondering what you meant exactly (because that way you can have both things introduced: not insult your audience's intelligence but keep everyone else guessing). Anabelle |
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Anabelle Special user 951 Posts |
One more thing. I also believe, and this is just me, that if you have a show by a Psychological Illusionist and, let's just say, a Mentalist, and put these shows side by side, both really good, you'll probably get more people going to the Mentalist's show because people will be saying things like "the other person does all his stuff with psychological tricks, but THIS person here, wow, I have no idea, so let's go see something truly mysterious." Of course this was exaggerated to display my opinion. Not that both wouldn't do well, but it's just my guess that people would probably be more interested in the performer who DIDN'T come out and say what they did was all done through trickery. I personally prefer a little mystery and I agree with Slim on Universal rides, I've seen it happen and I didn't like it.
Anabelle |
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Virungan Inner circle Here and There 1156 Posts |
Bill Hicks:
"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question, is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey - don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride... And we... kill those people."
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...
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John Nesbit Inner circle United States 1421 Posts |
Slim, Paolo, Anabelle, Virungan, and others alike. Your posts give good reason as to why this kind of performance has endured through the ages. Real mystery and suspense.
Showing a universe way too big for mundane reasonings and limiting explanations to sanitize and homogenize. To say to audiences what the parents of those kids on the Universal rides chant over and over, "It's not real, ect". Makes a good argument as to say; "Why bother with this kind of performing to begin with." Another good thread could read, "Should we be allowed to think Outside of the (BOX)"? |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-22 11:10, Anabelle wrote: And your point is what? MY point was that many top professionals use disclaimers. Later I agreed that Kreskin waffles in his weaker moments, and I thought that was wrong. You then wrote: Quote:
A disclaimer being almost non-existent is also something I was trying to say regarding how vague some performers are (having your cake and eating it too) in calling themselves Mentalists (according to popular definition) when they don't want to be viewed as that, and mentioning vague disclaimers that leave people wondering what you meant exactly (because that way you can have both things introduced: not insult your audience's intelligence but keep everyone else guessing). I'd agree that if you're going to make a disclaimer, make it a clear message, and not wishy-washy. Your remark at the end need to be addressed, though. You seem to think that there are only three possible choices: Either insult the audience's intelligence with a clear disclaimer; or keep everyone guessing with a vague disclaimer; or make no disclaimer at all. Let's take the first one and discuss the clear disclaimer and the audience's intelligence. Audience's may be intelligent, but that does not mean that they can't or won't believe that a Mentalist is really demonstrating psychic abilities. It's not at all a matter of intelligence or lack of it, it's about having no information except what the Mentalist chooses to give them. Human beings are hard-wired to need rational explanations for what goes on in their world. It's a survival instinct. In cave-man days, if we didn't learn the signs and understand basic things about changes in weather, roaming dinosaurs, gathering food, etc., we'd die. If something happened in our cave-man world that we didn't understand (lightening hitting a tree and creating fire, for example), in the absence of having the knowledge to supply a rational explanation for the event, any explanation would suffice, and so when someone said it was a gift from the Gods of Light from the Sky, we believed them. It was an explanation, albeit an inaccurate one. Later we figured out about atmospheric conditions, warm air masses and cold air masses colliding, etc. An audience watching a good Mentalist has no rational explanation for what they are experiencing. In the absence of a rational explanation, they will believe what they are led to believe by the Performer, the Performance, or what they've heard about this sort of "Psychic Mind stuff" in the past. Again, it's not about the audience's intelligence or lack of it. It's about the information that they have to work with. When a Mentalist makes a clear disclaimer, it's not insulting the audience's intelligence, nor does it need to detract from the performance. In fact, a good disclaimer can be wittily and entertainingly crafted and delivered, thereby ENHANCING the performance and letting the audience know that you appreciate their intelligence, and so want them to know that you understand that you have information that they don't and that you aren't trying to con them into a false belief system with your performance, but rather are there to entertain them with the mystery. Regarding keeping everyone guessing while still having a discalimer... It is hoped that the quality of the performance is such that the mystery is still there. Once the disclaimer is made, people can relax and enjoy the show with the new knowledge (filling in their need to have a rational explanation) that what you do is accomplished through scientific and natural means and is meant for entertainment. For most, that's enough. There will still be some who will try to figure it all out, there will still be some that think you've got special powers. You can't completely control that, especially if they come with a belief in the supernatural already in place. The disclaimer, in my case, serves all of the purposes as described in earlier posts by myself and by Stephen Long (a very wise young man). My feeling is that a disclaimer is a good thing. I don't say that everyone MUST use one, but it can be used intelligently, sensitively and entertainingly while serving to enhance the experience for the audience. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Anabelle Special user 951 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-22 12:05, entity wrote: I know you're speaking from personal experience and choice in that not everyone HAS to use a disclaimer and that's very fair. What really disturbs me about your above post is the assumption that an audience will think you are trying to "con them into a false belief system" if you don't use a disclaimer. I don't use a disclaimer and I don't feel I'm trying to "con" anyone into any belief system. I'm entertaining with my talent. That's it, I'm not asking them to join my church, or my cult, or asking them to buy my religious pamphlets, or asking them to donate money for the betterment of my belief system, I don't even charge for my mentalism performances (not yet anyway). I'm entertaining with my talent, and that's as far as that goes. And talking about insulting intelligences, your assumption that without a disclaimer I, as an entertainer, would be perceived as trying to con anyone into a belief system is insulting to me. Anabelle |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
I'm not assuming anything, but rather choosing not to leave it to chance.
What your intentions might be and what the audience perceives them to be may not be the same thing, unless you are clear to the audience what your intentions are. Not sure how you could feel insulted by that. Threatened, perhaps... - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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John Nesbit Inner circle United States 1421 Posts |
Bill Palmer thanks also for your input here, very wise and eloquent words. Coming from decades of invaluable experiencial knowledge.
Ted Lesley is a wonderful person as well as a pioneering giant in this field, and I wish him all the best. Being delusional and obsessive about disclaimers, fortunately was not an issue with him. Parkinson's indeed being the cause of an early retirement from a long and illustrious career. Is it me, or does it truly seem that some have control issues here. |
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Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
With posts like that, this could get nasty. Let's hope not.
Hello.
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