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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You Oughta Be In Pictures » » With all the whining about youtube (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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chichi711
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Is it just me or are online magic shops usually the biggest source of exposure? For example. If I were to perfrom PK Pen for someone and they decided to google search such a thing after it was over. All they would have to type is something like "Magic trick pen falling from table". They would then find about 200 magic shops selling PK Pen. The same can be done with almost any of these types of effects. I realize only a select number of people would even go to the truble, but it is still something that gets under my skin.

I recently spoke with another person. They told me they don't even buy anything if it is sold by an online retailer. Is this common with the rest of you? Are we finally getting to the point where the good stuff will finally be put back in books (where they belong)? WE all complain about exposure at one point or another. Is going back to books the perfect method for getting rid of it all?

Just my thoughts for the day.

Nate
Oyama
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I know that I have stopped buying from those places for that exact reason! I really like the limited release stuff and have loved almost all the effects I have bought here on the Café. I doubt you will see those items on youtube.
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
chichi711
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http://men.msn.com/articlees.aspx?cp-doc......t1=10215 speak of the devil. I guess karma is coming around rather quickly. Smile
Oyama
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WOW! That was some article. I don't have hopes that youtube will be shut down anytime soon. I think Magicians/Mentalist must come up with creative ways to limit what can be exposed. I am not sure how to do that, but I like the idea with Jim-Callahan's forum for the TEA dvd. Limited release and a password protected forum. Not fool proof, but moving in the right direction. Just my opinion.
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
bear trees
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I saida while ago on here that all the shops ive visited online only about 3 ask for a password.Its not infallable but its a start.How can you keep the secret when if you google any trick your given a picture and a price.Its just not cricket.

Jason
chichi711
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Bear tree what are the three sites you are talking about? Do they carry exlusive items? I know of the Outlaw site. They obviously carry exlusive items that if you try to google search you wont find them. What other shops are like Outlaw?
Exclusive products that are not just a simple click of the mouse away? At a time I didn't think people would really go to the effort of google searching an effect I did. Boy was I taught a very valuable lesson yesterday.
mesmer
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Quote:
On 2007-07-30 23:10, chichi711 wrote:
I recently spoke with another person. They told me they don't even buy anything if it is sold by an online retailer. Is this common with the rest of you? Are we finally getting to the point where the good stuff will finally be put back in books (where they belong)?



I also agree....I don't do stuff that being sold by Dealer...except Books
and in My performing Repertoire I will do my best to put as many layer and blanket of Method and Deception, so if Layman try to reverse Engeneer my Effect, then each ethod will canceling out the other
CAROLINI
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Isn't it possible that if the secret to an effect is known by your entire audience, that you could present it in such a way that they could still be fooled? Magicians used to perform a trick where they put a silk into their hand and it turned into an egg. They would then expose the hole in the egg with the silk sticking out. Then they would proceed to apparently do the same effect and end up breaking the fresh egg into a glass and the silk had vanished.

I'm sorry but exposing has never bothered me. I don't believe in performing an effect according to the given instructions. I just want to learn the principle and I'll devise my own version of the effect. That's why I'm never concerned as many others are whenever something "new" is mentioned in the Café.
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2007-07-31 15:23, CAROLINI wrote:


I'm sorry but exposing has never bothered me. I don't believe in performing an effect according to the given instructions. I just want to learn the principle and I'll devise my own version of the effect. That's why I'm never concerned as many others are whenever something "new" is mentioned in the Café.


I am curious how you would perform PK Pen? I think it is a fantastic on the spot effect. Kind of hard to perform the effect "outside" the given instructions.

I do understand what you are saying though and also agree with it.
Rocketeer
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I think the Magic Café would do us all a great services if they put "noindex" meta tag into all of its pages. Word of mouth would still insure the Café's growth. The "noindex" attribute is not a panacea but all of the legit search engines abide by it.
I'm selling my hardcover autographed limited edition copy of Jerome Finley's "Thought Veil"

PM me for info.
ALEXANDRE
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Originality in presentation is certainly one solution to combat exposure.

One of my hobbies is to take well known effects, slightly change them, add a sneaky presentation and perform them for Magicians and Mentalists leaving them wondering how I did it.

This little game has been an incredibly educational tool for me over the years.

I've performed PK pen by sneaking it into a brand new package of pens, opening the package and performing a routine with a couple of the pens. Even though some watching knew about the PK pen, the fact that it was sealed in a new package along with other pens threw them off. In one routine, I even let the specific pen be chosen, but you can figure that out.
Xiqual
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Quote:
On 2007-07-31 15:58, chichi711 wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-07-31 15:23, CAROLINI wrote:


I'm sorry but exposing has never bothered me. I don't believe in performing an effect according to the given instructions. I just want to learn the principle and I'll devise my own version of the effect. That's why I'm never concerned as many others are whenever something "new" is mentioned in the Caf?


I am curious how you would perform PK Pen? I think it is a fantastic on the spot effect. Kind of hard to perform the effect "outside" the given instructions.

I do understand what you are saying though and also agree with it.


Hi Nate,
Christian Chelman did just that. He made a scarab "push" a PK block over instead
of the block falling. This type of lateral thinking applied to common gaffs is what is needed.
James
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
Xiqual
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Quote:
On 2007-07-31 21:21, ALEXANDRE wrote:
Originality in presentation is certainly one solution to combat exposure.

One of my hobbies is to take well known effects, slightly change them, add a sneaky presentation and perform them for Magicians and Mentalists leaving them wondering how I did it.

This little game has been an incredibly educational tool for me over the years.

I've performed PK pen by sneaking it into a brand new package of pens, opening the package and performing a routine with a couple of the pens. Even though some watching knew about the PK pen, the fact that it was sealed in a new package along with other pens threw them off. In one routine, I even let the specific pen be chosen, but you can figure that out.


Another way is to wait until you see someone with the same pen, borrow it and switch. Then switch back later. When they think it is their pen, there is no heat.
James
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2007-07-31 21:21, ALEXANDRE wrote:
Originality in presentation is certainly one solution to combat exposure.

One of my hobbies is to take well known effects, slightly change them, add a sneaky presentation and perform them for Magicians and Mentalists leaving them wondering how I did it.

This little game has been an incredibly educational tool for me over the years.

I've performed PK pen by sneaking it into a brand new package of pens, opening the package and performing a routine with a couple of the pens. Even though some watching knew about the PK pen, the fact that it was sealed in a new package along with other pens threw them off. In one routine, I even let the specific pen be chosen, but you can figure that out.


I agree that would work well with Magicians. I never perform for magicians and to a laymen the simple way to describe what happened was a pen falling off a table. If that makes sense. Again I realize that only a select few even care enough to try and figure things out, but these thoughts are helping me to look at the things I do a little differently.
Carlos the Great
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Not sure I agree with you about that just working "well with Magicians" (which, I think, is what you were trying to say, forgive me if I am wrong on that). I think you may be oversimplifying quite a bit ("to a laymen the simple way to describe what happened was a pen falling off a table") and I think that the principles put forth by Matt and Alexandre (e.g., the virgin state principle) work fine, esp. in the effect we are dicussing.

To be fair, I must admit that I subscribe to the fact that magicians are often easier to impress than lay audiences but, in the end, a person is a person is a person. I've never had any use for "magician fooler" type effects and I, personally, think magic clubs (where those types of effects reign) often contribute to bad magic and thinking.

I, of course, see the point you are trying to make, I just don't think it's correct. Exposure has never, ever hurt me, it has only helped. I can't begin to even count the number of times somebody has said that they saw how a certain trick was done on TV (none actually remember HOW it was done, just that they saw HOW it was done) but that isn't how I did it. I've said it dozens of times in dozens of ways and every way manages to offend (even if I don't mean for it to) so I will just say it in the clearest way possible (NOT directed at anybody here, btw):

IN MY EXPERIENCE:

Exposure only hurts those uncreative and unskilled among us. The slightest bit of creativity can be added to ANY effect and it will negate any exposure. I've never run into an exception to this (assuming, of course, the initial effect is worthwhile) and, in PMs, people who have tried to claim otherwise have come around after, usually, very brief conversations and exchanging of ideas.

Exposure is WAY overrated and I don't really think about it. I don't think it is good thing, it is definitely bad, but on a more ethical (versus pragmatic) level.

As always, just my opinion. And again, cuz I won't even respond if the conversation turns this way: I AM NOT SAYING ANYBODY HERE IS UNCREATIVE OR ANYTHING!!!

I respect everybody who has posted here very much.

Anybody who has read any of my posts knows that I say exactly what I feel, no backtracking here, so when I say I don't mean anybody here, please believe it. Hope that is clear, lol.

-Carlos
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Carlos the Great
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A bit of an update:

Somebody PMed me with a story about exactly this topic. It's tough, esp. the story I got.

The question I have is what can we really do anyway? Pragmatically speaking, this isn't going to go away, so how should we respond?

-C
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chichi711
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Carlos for me it will come down to this. If it is a commercial effect. I want it to be something nobody ever sees. For example Midas or some other thing that can help you do other things. Other than that all my effects will come out of books. If I do get suckered into some effect off Hanklee, Hocus etc. I will have to make sure that it is layerd well and nobody can sum the whole experience up in a googable (is that a new word I made up?)catch phrase.
Shodan
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I'm not sure I can get on board with moaning about online magic shops selling magic tricks online. For people like me who simply don't have a "brick and mortar" in the same country it's the only way to get up and running.

I thoroughly agree with Carlos the Great - "[it] only hurts the uncreative and unskilled among us". Plus, lets face it - how many non-magicians (read: sensible members of the human race) are actually going to look up a trick and pay actual real honest-to-goodness money for it JUST to know the secret?

Worst case scenario, they buy it, get over the disappointment, they practise it, perform it, buy more tricks, join the magic Café and moan about online magic stores after a few hundred posts once they've forgotten how they got started. Of course, not everyone starts off like I did - but more and more people are. Thanks to online magic stores, I have a hobby that I am passionate about and a reasonable second income from performing.
"You don't go up to strangers with a stick and come at their head...introduce yourself first, then come at them with a stick." - David Williamson
Justin Style
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Disney said it best: It's a whole new world...


Get used to it.
JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2007-07-30 23:32, chichi711 wrote:
http://men.msn.com/articlees.aspx?cp-doc......t1=10215 speak of the devil. I guess karma is coming around rather quickly. Smile


I find it amazing that this ******* hole believes he has the right to take down my videos just because someone else is pirating his. These kind of people that think their **** don't stink are the ones that get under my skin. Cory sums it up nicely:

Quote:
"What universe do [Tur and Viacom] live in where they think they don't have to police their copyrights? I can't wait to see these bozos get slaughtered in court," says Cory Doctorow, the digital-rights advocate, coeditor of the popular Boing Boing blog, and science-fiction author. "Copyright holders have an incredible gift under the DMCA. They can force YouTube to take down videos without the expense of going to a judge."


-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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