|
|
JoyJoy Special user Germany 514 Posts |
In another thread we touched on a subject about the possibility of an shop outside of America, who gets authorized to build American illusions - like i.e. Puchinger sold his license of the Cube-Zack to America. I think it would be very helpful for the worldwide magic quality (and the work against Rip-Offs).
I copy-pasted all the points made chronologically: STEPHANE-ARNOW: Quote:
On 2007-08-02 06:46, STEPHANE-ARNOW wrote: STEPHANE-ARNOW: Quote:
On 2007-08-02 08:14, STEPHANE-ARNOW wrote: JoyJoy: Quote:
On 2007-08-02 08:33, JoyJoy wrote: Blair Marshall: Quote:
On 2007-08-05 16:03, Blair Marshall wrote: Timothy Drake: Quote:
On 2007-08-05 20:54, Timothy Drake wrote: MagicErik: Quote:
On 2007-08-07 14:09, MagicErik wrote: MagicErik: Quote:
On 2007-08-07 17:04, MagicErik wrote: |
STEPHANE-ARNOW Regular user FRANCE 136 Posts |
Hi joyjoy
yes, it is the way to follow. One or two autorised builder in Europe, and same in Asia. cheers |
Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
Glad someone started this post, perhaps a designer, or builder will take heed.
There is $$$$$ out there. Blair Marshall "ShaZzam!"
Visit My Facebook Fan Page At
www.Facebook.com/BlairMarshallMontrealMagician www.BlairMarshall.ca www.ShaZzamShow.com www.MontrealMagicien.com |
MagicErik Loyal user Sneek, Netherlands 284 Posts |
And who wants to continue?
I do believe that it is a great topic, but am with just a view friends here... When you have a product and want that to be sold you need to make sure that the people have the opportunity to sell it and not a cheap copy... The best way to stop all those knockoffs is to give all these people who buy them the chance to buy an original just as easy as all those cheap fakes... But who am I... EVI |
The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
MagicErik,
Here is my thinking. There have been so many rip offs in Europe that I think most designers have a bad mistrust of the builders there. I know for a fact that some builders who have been building knockoffs have approached the very designers they have knocked off in hopes of getting legit rights. That's like saying.."I've been stealing from you all this time but now I want to do some legit business and forget about the thefts." This has not gone over well with the designers. One builder actually asked a designer to send an original over so he can study it and do comparisons to prove the knockoff is different than the original. How stupid did he think that designer was???? I do see a future for the idea of legit European builders however. It will take only one builder who has a good clean rep to get permission to build an authorized illusion and when that illusions designer starts to get his royalty checks the other designers will begin to follow suit. I also think the more properly built originals in Europe the better as the will outshine the crappy knockoffs. I also think the European performers will have to accept the fact that the price will be the same as the US counterpart minus the duties and shipping costs. I don't expect legit builders to compete price wise with the poorly built knockoffs that are thrown together buy the ripoff builders. I'd say that the more successful European performers who are working with the American designers may be able to recommend a legit builder in Europe. There has got to be lots of them who could do well. Best, Tim |
Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
Hmmm...a Wal-Mart for the magic industry...I don't see any rollbacks coming soon MagicEriK
|
Laszlo Csizmadi Special user From Hell 868 Posts |
This problem will be never solved. Let me explain why. People who are build rip off props don’t care about rights for them the whole thing is business. Famous builders make good amount money on every prop. The fake prop builders making less money but they sell more products even if looks like sh*t. There are money issues either for the magicians especially from the East countries. In some countries the earnings are too low and they can’t afford to buy original props. I know what will you say now and you are right. If you can’t afford then don’t perform. But those magicians don’t care either. They want to perform and they buy the cheap rip off because that is what they can afford. They are not making thousands of dollars per months.
Here is an example the Origami illusion what cost 10 000 US dollars plus shipping. A Russian average worker if he wants to buy an original Origami needs to work about 2 or 3 years for it. The Polish, Romanian or Hungarian average workers are making about the same. In Afghanistan the people making 1 or 2 dollars per day. Can you imagine how long they need to work for an original Origami? No wonder why so many fake Origami, Interlude etc out there. So what I want to say. Even if there would be a couple builders in Europe who have the right to build original props there would still have rip off because of the earning differences. However on the West side such as Germany, U K, France, and Holland etc could help get rid off the fake Origami and other fake props. There was a Copperfield interview when David mentioned his show in Russia. I’m sure some people thought it was a joke but I can assure you it was not. There was a Russian guy who was a guard on David show. He had his name on his uniform coat. He loaned his uniform coat on every show to different person so he could make a little extra money and those who was wearing the coat could see the show much cheaper. That is how most people living in those countries and nobody can change them. If you were never living in a communist system you won’t and you can’t understand their situation. Thank god I got out from that corrupt system 20 years ago. What can I say now? Canada and the original Origami is the best. Las |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
One of the most frequently knocked off illusions is the Blaney Ladder suspension. The ones coming out of Italy are pure crap. They don't work. Blaney fine-tuned each one he built.
Now he has finally started having them made for him by an experienced illusion builder who lives in his area. He has full control over the illusion every step of the way. Now, to play devil's advocate. Why should the European market have access to Blaney's Ladders? It's his trick, not someone else's. He is under no obligation to sell it to anyone that he doesn't feel could do it justice. That's part of what many people don't understand. The seller of these illusions may not want them distributed in Europe. Now here's the real kick in the backside. The European knockoff builders knock off European illusions as well. Harold Voit's Ring Escape was knocked off by a German builder no more than a year after Harold had the thing patented. The judge found against Harold, by the way. The knockoff had one ring less. So the judge considered it a new trick. Here, justice is blind. There, justice is blind and stupid. So, clean up your act over there. Then the people over here might consider selling things to you.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
markparker Veteran user Singapore 350 Posts |
There is a wonderful guy here in the UK called Phillip Hitchcock he is developing an illusion for me at the moment. Phillip was a trained aircraft engineer by profession before moving into full time performing of stage magic and illusion, which makes a wonderful combination and understanding to build world class props which he is very capable of doing. He is now moving into full time prop building and will launch his business with my 180 illusion very soon. Phillip is extremely ethical and a complete joy to work with. I would not think twice to recommend him to take a license to build a prop in europe. I strongly believe that he will be pioneering world class props from this side of the water, which although will upset some people...hasn't been done before. The knock merchants of poor props will remain in existence as long as the quantity over quality acts continue to buy from them.
http://www.illusion-designer.com - Bespoke Illusion design - Publications -Show consultancy....Vivify a collection of stage illusions limited edition of 500 copies available now.
|
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
There is really no reason that everyone all over the world should be doing the same illusions. Just because an illusion comes from America doesn't necessarily make it better or newer. But people just MUST HAVE the latest thing that DC has done...Or Criss Angel...Or Cyril Takayama.
Has anyone stopped to think that very little in the way of illusions is actually new. Maybe once every two or three years something that is absolutely brand new comes out. Then EVERYONE has to have it. Zig-Zag -- British. Origami -- American Marat's Statue -- French The Frenettes are making some incredible illusions in Canada. There are great illusionists everywhere. How many of you even realize that Borodin has invented several illusions? There are some really nice plots and executions out there just waiting to be discovered. Yet people are still doing the DeKolta chair, shaping the back funny and calling it new. It's almost 150 years old, for Pete's sake.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
MagicErik Loyal user Sneek, Netherlands 284 Posts |
Wow. You guys in America think that you are the only ones that can make great illusions???????????????????? Dream on. We have electricity as well here in Europe. There are people here who can make professional illusions. And just as there are terrible builders in the US there are cheap amateurs here in Europe.
We can also bend steel. yes we can. Just look at all the rollercoasters you are riding in... More than 80% comes from Europe. Vekoma and B&M. Most of the lay outs are made in The Netherlands. Owh yeah? Yeah!! The main problem is not who makes the legit illusions. It's giving them here a chance to buy real ones in a shop where you can also see them. Bill smith could make some sort of showroom somewhere here in Europe. Perhaps selling them via one of our large magicshops... The same in Asia. People like Steinmeyer and Smith are always shouting that there are soooooo many knockoffs.. But on one hand they don't sue, they don't do anything about it. And on the other hand they don't sell, don't give illusionists over here the choice between an original one and a cheap copy.... When it is such a great problem you might think that they would do something but it looks like they all just lean backwards and every now and then say some nasty things about those illusionists outside the US. Ow yeah America is the only country where you have real illusionists... Sure... When magicians in other countries can't buy the real illusions they have to make their own. It's as simple as that. Bill if you really believe that we can't build professional illusions here in Europe then you are blind and extremely stupid as well. Sorry. If that is your attitude I will never buy something legit again in The US, but would rather spend my money over here with someone who does see me as the professional magician that I am... EVI |
Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
EVI.... why not push the builders in your region to create their own new illusions?
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
|
MagicErik Loyal user Sneek, Netherlands 284 Posts |
Okay I think some are missing my point...
There are designers and builders in the US who sell their illusions. My point is that it is extremely hard to buy them from outside America. These builders are shouting that all over the world illusionists copy their illusions. I think that some of the illusionists would want to buy those legit illusions but it is sometimes extremely time consuming and difficult to buy them. So they turn to builders in their region. But by now I got another feeling in this topic... There are great builders in Europe and there are (very) bad builders. I get the feeling that you americans believe that you alone can build proffessional magic. We have some very good illusionists here. And also a couple of high quality builders. They also design new illusions, that are copied in the US. Some of the US magicians are saying something like 'we are the best we are the only country in the world that can make professional illusions and the rest of the world consists of idiots who don't know anything about magic'. And it could be me but I don't agree. Sorry. That signal that you are giving can also be just that thing for illusionists not to buy the legit illusions in America but turn to the local dealers because they want to be treated like professional serious magicians and not like stupid hobbits like some in this Café are doing... Peter Marvey, Luis de Matos, Christian Farla, Jan Rouven, Hans Klok... just to name a view, they are NOT stupid magicians but great professionals that can compete with most of the great magicians in the US. And take a look at their shows... they do have original illusions. But these are made mostly in Europe because it is very very very very hard for us over here to let someone like Bill Smith build an original illusion. I am starting to agree with our Russian friend.. And I have seen some sites of so called illusionbuilders in the US. Trust me that was sometimes just as bad as some of those so called builders over here. Not all creators of magic in America are having great quality. And 'made in the United States' is not always a label for quality products.. Lol. EVI |
JoyJoy Special user Germany 514 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-14 16:25, Pete Biro wrote: Some do. I.e. the KubZack from Puchinger... and (!) he had no probs to sell the license to american builders. And there are many american illusionists who use it. Btw. there are many Rip-Offs of it also in america... One difference and reason, why there are not so many creators here is, that the market is not as big as in america. Show business isn´t so important here (there is for example no LasVegas around) - cultural diffenrences... |
JoyJoy Special user Germany 514 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-14 16:25, Pete Biro wrote: Some do. That´s not the point. I.e. the KubZack from Puchinger... and (!) he had no probs to sell the license to american builders. And there are many american illusionists who use it. Btw. there are many Rip-Offs of it also in america... One difference and reason, why there are not as many creators here is, that MAYBE (!) the market is not as big as in america. Show business isn´t so important here (there is for example no LasVegas around) - cultural diffenrences and smaller & more separated states... EDIT: Oops - sorry for 2x - I only wanted to edit the first to get some more details in... |
JoyJoy Special user Germany 514 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-09 11:57, Blair Marshall wrote: I would second that!! But I guess i.e. Jim S. is deadlocked in that idea - sad. (At least it seams so, after reading Blair´s experience...) A big builder here is for example "st..." (I did edit the name out to make no advertising). I would not give them any license and recommend them!! They maybe are good in building props, but they (for a long time and still) build also rip-offs. => I am not buying there at all (even not legal illusions) - cause they also have rip-offs. There I did get very (!) strict. There are other illusionists, who also would more like to buy legal illusions: Let´s say one of them would like to add "The Torch Box" to his programm. Than he sees the troubles he is getting by ordering it from america, the shipping costs, the customs costs, the difficulties with the customs, troubles with customs number, etc. and "st..." who sell´s it in front of his door. Some than are not that strict and soften... cause of these troubles... If they would have a choice with a legal version of a reputable and reliable builder here and "st..." - they would choose the legal one (wouldn´t soften that "easy" and would have an ethical reminder). Like that their would be one rip-off less sold and the creator would get the legitimate money he deserves... PS: Sorry for my bad english - I hope you anyhow understand a bit of my train of thoughts. PSS: And btw there are some illusionists here around, who even don´t know about a legitimated origami. I was offered one origami 3 days ago. And did ask: "Is it an original?" He answered: "I don´t know... etc." If there would be one builder here, who also highlights his licensed (!) version - this illusionist would have definitly known about it. |
abercrombe New user 49 Posts |
If the answer to this let the professional builders in other countries build props to the originators specs., then they must pay the royalties to the originator and then they will pass the cost on to the buyers. You might not be saving anything that way. I am a builder of magic props for my good friend Martin Lewis. I saw knockoffs of the Big Switch card and Cardiographic. They were absolute trash and on the cover sheet it said as seen on a Martin Lewis video. some people think this is how his products look. Everytime a knockoff is sold, the originator loses money, his stock sits in storage. Do you feel that the person who creates, develops, fine tunes and markets his creation should have his hard earned creation ripped off so you could have a cheap version of it at a reduced price. You only empower the ripoff artist because he has found a market for his illeagal merchandise. Maybe you should take a few classes in arts and crafts, wood working etc. If you can't afford it, try to make your own. Don't encourage these people to steal the hard work of others. If you only knew how hard I must work to assemble these props, maybe you would have a different perspective.
Abe |
abercrombe New user 49 Posts |
Just to add a little more to this thread. I understand there is a need to get quality props and the cost of shipping,taxes, ect. can make the prop out of reach and licencing a good manufacturer might solve your problem but,I feel that it still won't stop all the theives form selling cheap knockoffs. When I say I work hard at making a quality prop, its Martins name that goes on it so it must be to his standards and it must not fall apart when you get it in your hands. Everyone needs to put the sellers of these knockoffs on notice that the magic community will not buy from them. It not only hurts the creators, it hurts builders and its just not good for magic.
Abe |
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Grand illusion » » Shops with licensed American illusions - outside of America (0 Likes) |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.1 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |