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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Derren on UK TV in a few minutes (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jon_Thompson
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On 2007-08-13 08:04, mindpunisher wrote:
Easy show easy target been done to death over and over and over...

Enjoy..

I just don't find it entertaining and it will change nothing, that's my point its easy money the only reason for it existing..

Serious question: When did you see this show?
mindpunisher
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About two dozen times .....

they are all the same. I don't find the subject entertaining. its been chronically done since the first magi discovered they could get attention from doing it.
Energizer
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I think we may have an agent provacateur amongst us.
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
mindpunisher
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I also don't like penn and Teller who made a career out of exposing...

Im not surprised they are in on this professional sideline too.
kinesis
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Personally, I like what Dawkins is doing. Dawkins has spent many years writing passionatly about this subject. He's no showman but is very patient and understanding with all parties concerned. I have a few friends that are into 'alternative' therapies and 'new age' stuff. They spout so much woo-woo rubbish that I am embarassed to listen to them. So many people are blindly diving into this 'spititual era', puting their health and grasp of reality at risk, without question. We need many more programs like Dawkin's.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Energizer
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Kinesis - I'm in the same position as you. My sympathies. And alas, I lack the sharpness of intellect that Dawkins has that I need to show my friends the error of their ways.

Reminds me of seeing the people versus Jerry Sadowitz. Jerry was confronted by an old woman who claimed that nylon clothing had bad energy, and woolens had good energy - or some such claptrappery. It was quite disturbing for all concerned, including Jerry - a man who usually dishes out the disturbance!
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
kinesis
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Thanks Olly. As a magician people like to talk to me about such matters and I find it most disturbing that a very high percentage of these people just accept even the silliest bits of nonsense as fact, without questioning it or research. I take every oppertunity to try and convince them otherwise or point them in the Dawkins direction.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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mindpunisher
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But the point is Kenisis they are your "friends". These programmes won't make a blind bit off difference to them.

I agree with you which is why I would never do a psychic fayre. Or readings for a living. Because you will always be lumped with them.

On the health side many many many more people are injured or killed with conventional medicine. Of course there will never be a programme made about that. But indeed its true.

Buyt these are old arguments that go round and round. My only "gripe" is Ild rather see magicians mentalists performing good material. Or good TV getting good budgets to make some creative TV.

I just find the subject tiring.

Whats wrong with wool?
DJM
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How do you know the show won't be creative? You haven't seen a second of it. Just because you don't agree with the subject doesn't mean the show would be boring and not entertaining.

I think Bullsh*t is a very creative and professional show, at least the first season that I got to see.. I'd rather see shows like that then all those fake psychic stuff they always show on TV/
Virungan
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MP I take your points- but I wouldn't brand Dawkins as a denouncer and exposer alone. His work in recent years has moved from evolutionary biology into dealing with counter-science and religion, particularly with his book THE GOD DELUSION, which really is about the nature of belief and its social impact, focussing particularly on politics and education using examples such as the Taliban in Afghanistan and the extreme influence of evangelists on the current US Administration.

While it is true that many die hard believers will not change their belief structures no matter what and in fact see any challenges as a reaffirmation of faith- Dawkins work gives many of examples of social problems (terrorism, child abuse) that can and in some cases have been changed by removing religious faith from social order and governance.

I can't agree with you Olly that he opened a can of worms and walked away from it- his work was meticulously researched and annotated and he has consistently defended and debated it.

It's also worth considering that the majority of the population are neither extreme believers or non-believers, but somewhere between, and that work like this and exposure to education can and does influence peoples thinking and occasionally free their minds.

So I'd agree with Kinesis that there is value here, and (in this case) more than just exposure for the sake of scoring points.

V
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
kinesis
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Thanks V

MP said "On the health side many many many more people are injured or killed with conventional medicine. Of course there will never be a programme made about that. But indeed its true."

While I don't disagree with this staement, I know I'd rather be treated for cancer with scientifically tried and tested method,like chemo and radiotherapy, than some woo woo placing stones on my back and waving a crystal over the tumour.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Energizer
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Nice post Virungan! Yeah, maybe my comment on 'The D' was incorrect. It's just when Dawkins work is applied to psychology (my discipline) it becomes very controversial, and he is highly criticized by many. Come to think of it, he is also criticized by many within biology itself for his gene-centred view of biology. It's all so fascinating.

When Minpunisher asks 'Whats wrong with wool?' I get the impression that he is deliberatley misinterpreting my previous post for comical effect ... or some other of his sinister purposes (joke).
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Jon_Thompson
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Quote:
On 2007-08-13 10:07, kinesis wrote:
Thanks Olly. As a magician people like to talk to me about such matters and I find it most disturbing that a very high percentage of these people just accept even the silliest bits of nonsense as fact, without questioning it or research. I take every oppertunity to try and convince them otherwise or point them in the Dawkins direction.

I can't remember who said it but, "The tastiest pudding requires the least proof."
Virungan
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On 2007-08-13 10:13, mindpunisher wrote:
On the health side many many many more people are injured or killed with conventional medicine. Of course there will never be a programme made about that. But indeed its true.


I've heard this said before, and it's nonsense...

Of course many more deaths are recorded each year as a result of conventional medicine than those who use traditional or alternative medicines- but consider the size of your control groups.

In the West, where such records are kept, the vast majority of the population use conventional medicine, so the small percentage of those patients who are killed by negligence or mis-diagnosis vastly outweighs those who die while undergoing alternative treatments- but on numbers alone.

It's a little like saying more people die in car accidents than those who die in circus trapeze acts, therefore doing a triple reverse trapeze somersault is safer than driving to the mall.

Shoddy logic.

I live in Africa, where the vast majority of the population have limited access to modern medicine and are forced to rely on traditional medicine- and where I currently reside the average life expectancy is 38 years and the rate of infant mortality is 20 times higher than most European countries.

It always amuses me here to see some tourists and expats espousing the wonders of local herbalists and magic black stones that can draw out illness or visiting witch doctors so they have a neat story to take home- but at the first sign of malaria or a stomach upset they chug their Western pills and get their insurance to get them to the nearest newest hospital- something the average local person would dearly love to do but can't.

Anyone who is forced to rely on traditional medicine would make a decision just like Kinesis if they could to save their lives, especially when they don't have the luxury of a choice between a hospital and that groovy crystal they ordered from Dionne Warwick on the shopping channel..


V
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
Marc Spelmann
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A really thought provoking post Virungan..

I totally understand your point and in many ways agree with it..

Spelmann ( A westener who does chug the odd pill..)
It's not goodbye, just see you later...
Virungan
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Thanks Marc.. and keep on chugging... you need to keep those Inner Mind releases coming.. Smile
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
TheAmazingMrLucky
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Quote:
On 2007-08-13 09:34, mindpunisher wrote:
I also don't like penn and Teller who made a career out of exposing...


I may agree philosophically with Penn & Teller, but cannot stand their methods/attitude. I've seen them live a few times and enjoyed it, especially their political anti-flag burning ammendment piece. But, their Bullsh*t show is so painfully irritating with them talking down to everyone.

I prefer James Randi's less aggressive, but equally stalwart attitude.

Lucky
mindpunisher
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Without going further down the medical vs alternative health route.

Without a doubt we need medical doctors. But they are not the whole story.

No one ever died from holding a crystal. But many thousands die every year at the mercy of their treatment.

Many thousands of people every year are prescribed drugs that are not needed. I am talking more along the lines of treatments for anxiety depression etc. Many doctors will never give their patients a way to actually solve the psychological condition that's causing the problem. And won't offer a programme to come off the drugs.

Because that is where their power base lies. They get kickbacks from the drug companies.

To me that is more dishonest than a psychic who believes they are psychic giving a reading.

But society is conditioned to see doctors as athourity figures and swallow every pill going.

They even brought out a pill to "cure" shyness so long as you keep taking it. One or two basic sessions of hypnotherapy will easily solve the problem.

Of course we need doctors. But not for everything...alternative therapies some do actually work.
Energizer
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I thought the show itself was superb.

I agree with Mindpunisher when he says that medicating mental health problems is often a bad move. But it is also the cheapest option, and hence in Britain, with the NHS being as strapped-for-cash as it is, very often the only option. It is my dream that one day, people will in the UK will be offered drug-free therapies (if they want them) for mental health problems.

Maximum respect to Virungan for his last post as well.
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Energizer
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"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
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