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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Derren on UK TV in a few minutes (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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caycemindreader
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Quote:
No one ever died from holding a crystal.


I invite you to cup an orthorhombic crystal of Uranium 232 in your hand and then explain how harmless crystals are.

Cayce
mindpunisher
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Right of course those new age shops should be banned from selling those...

Can I borrow yours?

Olly its not because nhs is strapped for cash its because the doctors get kick backs.

Its possible to get a hold of someone for just one or two sessions and prevent them ever needing these drugs. That would be far more economical and effective.

But doctors will run away from that. They want you on drugs because that's how they justify their existance..
Energizer
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God I hope that is not true.

I agree with what you say. It is in accordance with my University course materials on the subject. It is indeed a sick world.

But I think my point about the costs of drug therapy is not worthless. Specially when you consider that providing therapy has unpredictable outcomes, wheras prescribing medication has quite predictable ones.

I would never take that stuff, unless I was forced to. May that day never come.
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
mindpunisher
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Providing the right kind of therapy has predictable outcomes. A considerable reduction in the use of certain drugs.

that's what doctors fear.
Jon_Thompson
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On 2007-08-14 07:29, mindpunisher wrote:
Providing the right kind of therapy has predictable outcomes. A considerable reduction in the use of certain drugs.

that's what doctors fear.

Do you mean doctors or drug companies, or do you believe all doctors are in the pay of the drug companies?

Hmmm... That sounds like a Fall lyric. Smile
mindpunisher
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I'ts a fact all GPs get kick backs.

Also in most things the presented motivation for a professional act is not the true one. It seems to be universal law of human nature in may cases. The self always comes first. Yet it depends upon the presented motivation being accepted in order to survive.

I once worked with a new organisation that was set up to take junkies on to the next level of rehab. Ie away from therapy independance on to training courses etc.

As a new agency we spoke to many other agencies so they would refer their clients to us after they had been through there programmes.

They wouldn't do it. We discovered that they wanted to keep their clients stuck at that phase because they got their funding by head count. Their very existance depended upon keeping their clients stuck.

Its not uncommon in a lot of other related fields too. Self interest comes first...

Sometimes wonder if certain professionals are there for us. Or if we are there for them it can get pretty mixed up..
kinesis
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To be honest my main concern is more to the fact that science is being ignored in favour of mysticism. For instance Boots The Chemist (UK's most well known drug store)is now stocking a wide range of homeopathic medication. Homeopathic remedies have no scientific foundation and appear to be exempt from tests and trials. People are buying (for example) drinks coasters that magnatise (sp) their water to make it healthier. People today are spending millions of dollars on snake oil, most of the products have no scientific basis to them what so ever. Yet people read the blurb and accept it without thinking without bothering to do some research. People WANT to believe the woo woo and are to *** lazy to give it a second thought. People today lack critical thinking.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Energizer
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No wonder you're such a sceptic, Mindpunisher! You tell a very interesting tale.
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Energizer
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I think one problem with people believing in alternative and unusual therapies is that the science is often confusing, contradictory and difficult to understand. One month hormone replacement therapy is good for you - next it is linked with breast cancer. Years ago, cigarettes were medically endorsed by doctors ... now not so. And as for chemotherapy and radiotherapy ...

And then there was the MMR jab thingy being linked to autism Dawkins mentioned last night.

And recently vitamin supplements have been reported as being not as beneficial as previously thought.

No wonder many people in the public distrust/mistrust(?) science.

Still, I love science, but that's because I've been lucky enough to be schooled in it. Millions are not so lucky.
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
kinesis
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Unlike a lot of other ridgid belief systems, Science is prepared to change and adapt as new discoveries are made.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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psychicturtle
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^ That was the only place I felt Richard Dawkins failed with this show. He seemed steadfastly resolute against allowing even the slightest suggestion that science may ever be flawed or wrong. He seems to view science as the ultimate proof, and when done correctly, it may well be.
However, it is very often flawed and skewed by subjectivity and poor methodologies, and sadly, this seems almost commonplace these days.

Aside from that I thought the show was very good.

The spiritualist medium in the church was hilariously bad!
kinesis
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I thought the astrologer was great. His panic, when Dawkins suggested giving a group of 12 people the same reading (Capricorn) to see if it fitted their situation, was priceless! Great viewing but not enough of it. Can't wait 'til next Monday.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Energizer
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Yeah - But Derren himself was a bit of a disappointment wasn't he?
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Jon_Thompson
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Quote:
On 2007-08-14 10:24, kinesis wrote:
I thought the astrologer was great. His panic, when Dawkins suggested giving a group of 12 people the same reading (Capricorn) to see if it fitted their situation, was priceless! Great viewing but not enough of it. Can't wait 'til next Monday.


I laughed out loud when that woman at the psychic fair said of "psychic energy" that "you can rely on it better than your head." At least she had the decency to look slightly embarrassed about what she was saying. :shock:
DJM
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Don't people already know about the Astrology experiment? I've see it in on almost every deubking show that was made.
Karswell
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I thought the show was pretty good , it certainly had some food for thought about science and culture. For many reasons science, logic, etc. get thrown in the dull, stuffy, orthodox category by many people and it’s something that’s rebelled against; science certainly has image and marketing problems and I don’t think that’s the cultures fault, like RD asserted in the programme, but Science's own responsibility and problem. The politics and economics of science have their own problems too – very much so – but it is a separate argument.

Straight afterwards on BBC1, they had a programme about medicine saving lives under dire circumstances. Simultaneously on ftn there was a 'psychic' doing his best (with coldreading, complete with captions as to his many misses and inaccuracies). I thought maybe they should switch challenges and have the psychic try to help someone having those multiple heart attacks by psychic power. Though how the surgeons would do at coldreading is anyone’s guess.

Lives saved by science today, worldwide...who could estimate how many? Homeopathy...today or ever? Zero.

If he missed on stating science NOT being the ultimate or final truth, he did in the last special, 'In the Name of Evil'(?). He told the story of a scientific researcher who spent his entire life and reputation on his theory and its proof. At a conference someone presented counter research that entirely, successfully demolished his work to which he walked up and shook the persons hand and congratulated them, much to everyone’s and RD applause.

In fact, as kinesis says, that science is continuously revised is one of the defining distinctions between hoo-har and science.

Nick.
rbattle
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As a physician I do have an internal bias. But I also have experience in treating patients in both the US and in a bush hospital in Ghana, West Africa. I can say without a doubt that non science based medicine by whatever name you want to use can kill you. I have treated a number of people who tried traditional medicine first and after it failed came to the bush hospital with a problem that could have been cured by a science based treatment if the treatment had not been delayed. Certainly in the US we do make mistakes and have changed the way we treat diseases over the years but usually it is based on evidence that is reproducable.

Robert
Joshua Lozoff
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If everything were done with the purest intentions in the world of Western medicine, I think some of you would have better arguments. You certainly make very good points. But to ignore the unbelievable collusion between, for one small example, the FDA and the drug companies, is either deceitful or naive. Pure science would be a great thing and very worthy of your defense. But what you call science has much more to do with money than you are willing to acknowledge.

To my mind, a belief that modern western medicine is based upon pure-intentioned science and medical research, people with the public's best interest in mind, is about 1000 times more naive and superstitious than the most astrology-reading, crystal wearing, magnet holding, psychic reading looney could ever hope to be!

I'll take my chances with homeopathy and "alternative" medicine. You take your chances with Merck and Pfizer.
Joshua Lozoff

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smokingkills
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It's all so black and white to you guys, isn't it?

Open your mind a little, and realise that science and "woo woo alternative therapy woo woo" aren't enemies all in their seperated and generalised camps. Grow up and actually know what you're talking about. Even a mainstream scientist would be embarassed by some of the rubbish spouted in here.
Jerome Finley
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I'm with Joshua and smokingkills . . .

I really do not understand the contempt for traditional healing being expressed in this thread. I have a little bit of experience with these things, and it's not all BS and crystal woo-woo . . . IMHO.

I support Western medicine as well, and I think it's foolish to discount anything that could have a positive effect in overall health and wellness.

Best,
J.
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