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chichi711
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On 2007-08-16 21:51, TT2 wrote:

I support Western medicine as well, and I think it's foolish to discount anything that could have a positive effect in overall health and wellness.

Best,
J.



Great point. Their is not a perfect solution that I have seen. Sometimes it takes a combination of things.
Silvertongue
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Anyone got a link to a video of this? I'm in the U.S. and would really like to see it, thanks...
For as long as space exists,
And living beings remain in cyclic existence,
For that long, may I too remain,
to dispel the sufferings of the world.
-Shantideva

Engaging in the Conduct of a Bodhisattva
Mark Roberts
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Virungan
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Interesting comments but I think some missed the points that myself and Robert were making- which were not “rubbish being spouted”.

The argument here is not in favor of drug companies or the “medical business”. There is no doubt that medicine has become commercialized to a dangerous degree, particularly in the USA. Michael Moore did an excellent job with SICKO of highlighting this problem, but keep in mind that (as he showed) there are other countries in the world where State Health care is not run as a business.

But the business ethics were not what we were referring to- though its probably worth noting that most alternative medicines and treatments are not given out for free, check out those price tags on the crystals at the next New Age Fair you visit- it’s a big business too.

Nor was I denying that using alternative remedies in conjunction with Western medicine is necessarily bad- especially if the person believes in it- as it can add to the psychological process of healing.

The posts and arguments we made were in response to the comment that the flipside of Dawkins argument was that alternative medicine was not dangerous, and killed and harmed a lot less people than conventional, science based medicine.

Which is not true.

Both Robert and myself were commenting from positions of having lived and worked in societies where lack of conventional medicine has led to a reliance on purely traditional and alternative medicines- and that the result is not a pretty picture, and does a lot more harm than conventional medicine.

I’m not denying there is validity in some traditional remedies- there have been many cases where herbal remedies used traditionally have been proven to have medicinal value and they have formed the basis of many commercially available drugs. However, the danger lies in use of traditional remedies and practiced that are not scientifically tested or are proven by their own shoddy logic.

This may not seem harmful when it’s a bottle of herbal massage oil or a crystal on sale in Santa Monica, but in an environment where lives depend on the same “harmless bit off woo-woo”- it’s a very different scenario.

Let me give you a real word case from East Africa, where I currently live. When people in villages here are bitten by snakes, they take a black stone and hold it against the bite, believing it will draw out the venom and save their lives.

Here’s the thing- in the majority of cases this works, and the person survives. The belief in this black stone here is very strong to the point where many people will use it rather than seek out an expensive commercial anti-venine drug. I’ve even heard foreign expats espouse the powers of the stone to remove snake venom. The majority of people who use it live and only a small percentage actually die. It makes sense right?

Well, not when you apply scientific logic. The fact is that the majority of snakes found in populated areas are harmless non-venomous snakes, and their bites have no ill effect, so even if you held a watermelon, or your finger, or nothing against the bite, you’d live. Research has proven that the small minority of people who don’t survive are the ones being bitten by venomous snakes, and stone or no stone, they die.

As a result, many people are dying each year because they don’t seek help and rely on a traditional remedy, and when bitten by a deadly snake simply sit down and hold a stone against the bit till they die. The same situation exists with regard to many other common illnesses- and with the same fatalities.

Are drug companies at fault for not supplying free anti-venine drugs? Yes you’re right, but the belief in untested traditional remedies is equally fatal- and arguing that people would be better off with a stone than the drug is insanity.

There are countless more examples of how dangerous this kind of thinking can be- there is current horrifying trend that has become common all over Africa due to belief in traditional medicine and this kind of thinking.

Traditional healers here some years ago developed a theory that as HIV can be transferred from an infected person to an uninfected person via body fluids, that transferring health body fluids BACK via the same means would actually reverse the process.

It kind of makes sense in a harmless bit of woo-woo way right?

Except that traditional healers publicized that HIV positive people could be cured by having sex with HIV negative people- and that the safest way to be sure they were negative was if that person was a virgin.

The result has been a massive outbreak of rape of underage girls and children, by HIV positive men. This has occurred right across the continent- with horrific results.

Here is an article discussing the same with some staggering statistics regarding the number of rapes that have resulted.

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm

Unbelievably, this belief and trend is now spreading to Asia as well,

So my point remains- Traditional medicine and the dismissal of science is very dangerous and has resulted in much more harm being done that conventional medicine, and continues to do so.

Is a televangelist who takes the money of a cancer patient as a donation and offers them a cure by slapping them on the forehead on a cable TV show not doing harm?

There is nothing wrong with exploring alternatives and considering the power of positive thought and psychology in healing- but if you want to abandon all conventional medicine and rely solely on traditional remedies then good luck to you.

But keep in mind that without the childhood vaccinations and volume of medicines given thus far to you all in your average Western life spans, a sizeable group of you wouldn’t have survived you childhood and wouldn’t have much to post about all. Smile

V
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
mindpunisher
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NO one is abandoning conventional medicine. The original po int that was made was that the show itself was made to make money not to educate the public. And that it was an easy target and done to death format.

What you say above no one died of the altnernative therapy itself. It just didn't work. The point I was making was that many many thousands of people actually die from the medical treatment itself.

Plus most of your examples come from the third world.

There are a number of alternative therapies that are more effective than conventional medicine especially with psychological problems.

So lets get some balance.
Virungan
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Quote:
On 2007-08-17 05:59, mindpunisher wrote:
NO one is abandoning conventional medicine. The original po int that was made was that the show itself was made to make money not to educate the public. And that it was an easy target and done to death format.


Someone a few posts back (not you) actually did recommend abandoning conventional medicine.

Quote:
On 2007-08-17 05:59, mindpunisher wrote:

What you say above no one died of the altnernative therapy itself. It just didn't work. The point I was making was that many many thousands of people actually die from the medical treatment itself.



They died as a result of using and believing in it, and if given a conventional drug would have lived- and more people are cured by anti-venine than die from it. With my second example- the HIV cure- there is certainly a lot more harm being done than by regular AIDS ART drugs.

Quote:
On 2007-08-17 05:59, mindpunisher wrote:

Plus most of your examples come from the third world.



Guess what- so do most traditional remedies. But what's your point?

Quote:
On 2007-08-17 05:59, mindpunisher wrote:

There are a number of alternative therapies that are more effective than conventional medicine especially with psychological problems.

So lets get some balance.


I agree and said so with the additional benefits- especially in a psychological sense- but to balance and prove your point, you need to give an example of an alternative medicine that has proven to work more effectively than the conventional one, and the number of people cured by the alternative means,and the number not cured and/or killed by the conventional drug, with the total number of patients undergoing both forms of treatment- which would then prove your point.

I'm not being negative about your post and am interested in your opinion- I'd just like to see some proof, as I disagree that more people are killed by conventional than traditional medicine, which has been my only point.

Cheers

V
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
mindpunisher
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I used to run a hypnotherapy NLP practice. One of my clients was suffering from stress and depression. The doctor had him on prescribed pills and told him to take a few months off work.

When I met with him at his home (he was to ill to come see me)just knocking on his door made him run to the toilette to spew up. Coming out of the workplace and isolating himself while he waited for the "drugs" to kick in THREE MONTHS.

I spent three hours with him. And he was completely different after that session. Within a month he was back at work off the prescribed pills and finished an MBA. He was about to throw both his job and the MBA away and was contemplating suicide.

It only took three hours to correct something that had got significantly worse using conventional medicine over a period of six weeks. Now that is a common story.

I don't care if science hasn't proved it. I have over and over.

The third world examples you gave are from a primitive society and don't represent the majority of the developed world. But I repeat even there no one died from the therapy. They died from ignorance.
kinesis
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I understand why hypnotherapy would work over drugs. The guy had a psychological problem that was cured by altering his sub-conscious petterns. Many doctors now refer patients to hypnotists. My concern is that many companies are exploiting the public with remedies and contraptions that they know do not work. Homeopathy has been scientifically proven not to work. Water does not retain an imprint of a chemical. Treating like with like is generally nonsense. Yet companies like Boots The Chemist in the UK appear to recognise these products as acceptable remedies by stocking them on their shelves, thus giving the public a false sense security. Homeopathic remedies should be labelled 'PLACEBO'. And sp should a million other useless products and therapies. It may be great if things like reiki MAKE the patient FEEL better but they should not be offered as a cure and it should be stated so.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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mindpunisher
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I would also say treatment using many psychogenic drugs doesn't work either.

Many doctors don't send their patients to hypnotherapists.

All medicine is said to have a placebo effect of as much as 30%. Therefor 30% of the time doctors are prescribing placebos much like the therapies you knock.

Many medical remedies keep the problem going to make money. For example a cure for stomach ulcers has been available for about 30 years or more. Yet the drug companies wouldn't release it because they make more money ou t of prescribing monthly tablets for years on end. That don't aim to cure anything but to manage the condition so they can milk it.

All I am saying is lets have some balance here. Why don't they include these items in those shows?

Because the psychic is an easy target well trodden path to churn out yet another money making un creative show and collect some easy dosh..

Magicians beleive they are chosen by the almighty to fight psychics and new agers. Why don't they tacklt conventional "woo woo" because it exists too.
kinesis
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NP "But I repeat even there no one died from the therapy. They died from ignorance"

And as the population turns more and more towards woo woo remedies it becomes more gullable and less able to use critical thinking. The only saviour is education and awareness of how to use science as a belief system and awaken their minds to the truth. Science isn't perfect but works on the basis of creating theories from the knowledge it has. As this knowledge grows theories change and become refined. Of course there is a danger in woo woo, it dulls the mind and warps reality. Thinkof it, psychics, water deviners, homeopathic remedies, magnet therapies, if they were all real our doctors would be prescribing them and our world learders would be consulting them.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Lee Davies
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Quote:
On 2007-08-17 07:16, mindpunisher wrote:


Many medical remedies keep the problem going to make money. For example a cure for stomach ulcers has been available for about 30 years or more. Yet the drug companies wouldn't release it because they make more money ou t of prescribing monthly tablets for years on end. That don't aim to cure anything but to manage the condition so they can milk it.





Not true – it was discovered recently that bacteria was the cause of stomach ulcers, not modern live-style nor stress. Hence the noble-peace prize was awarded to the men who 'discovered' a solution to long standing issue that aluded many experts.

http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/0001725/37/

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medic......ess.html
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mindpunisher
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The cure has been around for decades...since the 70s but was never released.

Plus its easy to find info on the net hat supports anything.

http://www.ulcer-cure.com/ulcer-medications.html#fullstory
Lee Davies
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Quote:
On 2007-08-17 07:31, mindpunisher wrote:
The cure has been around for decades...since the 70s but was never released.


After testing a large percentage of people first with clinical trials - you can't start dishing out a solution on a hunch Smile At first there wasn't a cure - only a discovery...

Also before they were controlling the illness, the cure had to be verified and put into practice. No need for surgery or unnecessary medication now…

Throw the old ideas out and in with the new
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Lee Davies
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Quote:
On 2007-08-17 07:31, mindpunisher wrote:
The cure has been around for decades...since the 70s but was never released.

Plus its easy to find info on the net hat supports anything.

http://www.ulcer-cure.com/ulcer-medications.html#fullstory


Can't argue with the nobel peace prize...
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mindpunisher
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Also I can't be bother singling out any links anyone that wants to spend time finding out about fatalities due to medical treatment

http://www.google.com/search?q=statistic......;oe=utf8
mindpunisher
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"can't argue with the noble peace prize" why not?
Lee Davies
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Quote:
On 2007-08-17 07:42, mindpunisher wrote:
Also I can't be bother singling out any links anyone that wants to spend time finding out about fatalities due to medical treatment

http://www.google.com/search?q=statistic......;oe=utf8


They still won a Nobel Peace Prize!
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kinesis
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Quote:
On 2007-08-17 07:31, mindpunisher wrote:
Plus its easy to find info on the net hat supports anything.


Exactly why critacal thinking and education and a desire to research things is essential in todays culture. Woo isn't harmless it'sdangerous and expensive and if used as an ALTERNATIVE (as opposed to comlimentary) medicine potentially fatal.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Lee Davies
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Quote:
On 2007-08-17 07:42, mindpunisher wrote:
"can't argue with the noble peace prize" why not?


You think it's an incorrect discovery then?
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Virungan
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MP,

Your comments on hypnotherapy are interesting, but I think there are considerable divisions between the use of drugs in treatment of psychological disorders and physiological disorders.

As a practicing professional, you should have better concrete proof than "I don't care if science hasn't proved it. I have over and over."

The use of drugs in mental health is hotly debated amongst professionals in the field, and there's lots of interesting research on both sides- but "conventional medicine kills more people than traditional" is still, as far as I have seen- wrong.

And dismissing the Third World as primitive and irrelevant is out of order- the developing world is actually at the forefront of many of the world's major health issues, and unlike the West is where the balance of traditional and modern medicine is an everyday part of life.

V.
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
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