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Experimentalist Veteran user 356 Posts |
Hello Mates, (This is my first MC post.)
It appears to me that there has been a very gradual trend of late towards mentalists being fairly open about the fact that they are basically just magicians. Historically, mentalists have made a point of distancing themselves from magicians at all costs. (During my one conversation with Harry Blackstone several years ago, he mentioned that Kreskin refused to be seen in public with him for fear of how it might be percieved.) Lately however, this seems to be changing. Brown sometimes refers to himself as an illusionist for example. The clincher of course is this recent Geller and Angel team-up to find the next great mentalist. This pretty much tells the public loud and clear that mentalists are just tricksters. It may soon be necessary for old school mentalists to avoid association with mentalists as well as with magicians. |
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chichi711 Inner circle 5810 Posts |
Well now you have a lot of magicians doing magic mixed with mentalism in the same show. I have even been told that they just inform their audience before hand for example "this next effect is mentalism". To funny.
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Experimentalist Veteran user 356 Posts |
The audience would naturally accept the mental effect as being just another "trick" in such a case however. It would evoke the "how did he do that" response, which of course is what a mentalist does not want.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I think ultimately, you just have to accept it and do your own thing your own way...you cannot change peoples minds against mixing the two in an obvious way..
but then again, Berglas, Kreskin, Canasta to name but three performed a mix, but were never NOT taken seriously...its all in the delivery... nice to see another experimentalist on board...
I've asked to be banned
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Experimentalist Veteran user 356 Posts |
I agree completely, although I find myself making an effort to avoid presentations that resemble those done by the guys on TV. I don't want anyone thinking that I'm in the same "tricky" line of work as Brown/Blaine/Angel.
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brainchild Loyal user Ideological Bigot 259 Posts |
I always tell people I am completely legitimate, like Uri Gellar, and don't do any tricks.
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ALEXANDRE Inner circle 3024 Posts |
Brainchild, I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, but in this case you are begging people to try and prove you wrong instead of purely entertaining, giving them an experience and letting them come to their own conclusions.
And not to be a smart a ss but it's Uri Geller. As far as the original post, things are certainly changing, but it's all in how you present yourself. I think serious performers should do their own thing, whatever that may be. Believe in it and go for it.
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Silvertongue Inner circle One day I will die leaving behind 2426 Posts |
Abracadoyaknowwhati'mthinkin
For as long as space exists,
And living beings remain in cyclic existence, For that long, may I too remain, to dispel the sufferings of the world. -Shantideva Engaging in the Conduct of a Bodhisattva |
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brainchild Loyal user Ideological Bigot 259 Posts |
Alexandre, yes, I was totally kidding.
I agree with you. |
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gabelson Inner circle conscientious observer 2137 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-14 16:35, ALEXANDRE wrote: I think that's the bottom line- letting the spectator come to his/her own conclusion. Why, as mentalists, do we need "disclaimers"? Unless, like Derren Brown, you offer an outrageous explanation of "how-d-diddit" that's even MORE incredible than if he HAD used his "sixth sense". People go to see mentalists because they want to be entertained, and unlike with magicians, they can, if even for an instant, believe that the power of the human mind is infinite (who says it isn't?), and the performer in question has this power harnessed. The first time I saw PK touches performed, I really believed it was some sort of "extra"-hypnosis I previously hadn't thought possible. Do I need to be told it's not real? Despite that particular show spurring my interest in mentalism, I felt "let down", when I eventually learned everything I saw was merely "tricks". Believe in what you do, and the audience will, too. There's no crime in that. Ok, let the stoning begin! |
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SWNerndase Regular user 168 Posts |
I perform professionally as a mentalist and magician. On stage I do a "pure" mind reading act, but any other time (before the show, after the show, socially, whatever) I do straight conjuring and sleight of hand. I believe that with careful attention to certain details in presentation and scripting the two can work beautifully together, and one can be used to enhance the other. But I make no secret of the fact that I am not a psychic, and that my mental program contains elements of deception.
When Experimentalist comments on the trend of mentalists being open about the fact that they are "...basically just magicians," the use of the word "just" is pejorative. As if a mentalist who openly lies or even implies by omission that there is real psychic power at work is in some way better than "just a magician." I object to the whole line of questioning when framed in those terms. Part of the mentalists "coming out of the closet" is in my view an attempt to raise the level of sophistication and acceptance by people who would scoff at someone who claimed to have real psychic powers while doing add-a-no. (Yes, I chose a slanted example to make my point. But I could just as well have said "billet reading" or "book test" or for that matter "spoon bending.") Admitting that there is an element of deception needn't remove the mystique or relegate the performer to being "just a magician." In fact, when smartly handled by top pros like Tim Conover, Derren Brown or Michael Weber, the unequivocal denial of psychic power and admission of deception (note that deception in this context is NOT "just tricks") adds tremendously to the overall sense of mystery. These men, and others like them, are not "just magicians." They are GREAT magicians, with subtle methods and sophisticated psychological effects that are unfathomable mysteries to an appreciative audience. I don't think they are "coming out of the closet." They are changing the paradigm, raising the bar, and bringing mentalism into the modern age. If their revolution is successful, the "old school mentalists" Experimentalist refers to may be relegated to the status of "just liars." We'll have to wait and see. SWN |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-15 00:57, gabelson wrote: Yes indeed. I tell them I am trying to take them away from reality for a brief time, that is my goal anyway.
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Experimentalist Veteran user 356 Posts |
The "just magicians" verbage is what I hear from laymen. This is how I find that the public thinks about these things. They view "tricks" as being less interesting and less relevant to thier lives than "unexplainable mysteries". A brush with the paranormal can be inspiring, an illusion is merely a momentary diversion.
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Bill Fienning Special user 635 Posts |
I know many mentalists; a few use disclaimers, many do not or are simply ambiguous about this. Banachek, a very successful mentalist, uses a disclaimer. However, he is so skillful, that the audience ends up doubting his disclaimer (like maybe his attorney told him to make the disclaimer for some obscure legal reason).
There is a difference between mentalism and mental magic. Magicians are doing mental magic. Even if they think they are doing mentalism, the audience will perceive it as mental magic, because of the context of the magic show. I never mix the two. I am a bizarrist, which means presenting magic theatrically as if it were real. When I perform as a mentalist, I am not mixing it with bizarre magic, and my back-story covers an ambiguous semi-disclaimer that isn't.
Bill Fienning
"It's More than Tricks" |
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Experimentalist Veteran user 356 Posts |
Hey Bill,
(I'll get back on topic in a minute.) I saw you perform at WW2. You made a little figurine come to life in my wife's hand. Then you did something about Satan's Blessing and finished with a gambling routine that ended with a Breath Crystal set into a pair of glasses. It was one of the highlights of the weekend. Anyway,...... Would you describe D. Brown as a mentalist of a magician doing mental magic. The fact that he uses terms like "psychological illusionist" seems to place him into the magician category. |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
Just got off the phone with a friend. He's watched Derren Brown and he said that he DIDN'T like the way he explained things......Just an observation.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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phillsmiff Inner circle UK 1794 Posts |
Hi Experimentalist, I think it worth remembering that the 'secret magic techniques' that DB uses to enact his psychological illusions are themselves (by and large) an artifice. He hasn't stripped away that layer of pretense, he has just added another.
All of these lines of distinction between mentalism/mental magic/magic/etc are, in my opinion, hazy and mobile. A mentalist can perform an effect which audience members will happily describe as a magic trick, even though many of them will also believe that it was made possible by the performers psychic ability. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying the lines don't exist, and that it doesn't matter what you do: what I am saying is that through your performance, premise and persona you define where the lines are. Just some thoughts, your mileage may vary! Phill
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
I like AL MANN..."I can read a persons thoughts when written on paper"
No disclaimer needed.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
No closet for me, no playing dress up either. I'm a psychic entertainer. When I read, I read, no tricks. When I'm performing mixed material on stage, I still use no disclaimer. Well, I may say, what you are about to particiapte in is accomplished with the power of the mind (all true), but sometimes I cheat, just a bit.
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Malchat Special user The Kingdom of Croiset and Wonder 885 Posts |
The play's the thing.
“You are what you pretend to be.”
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