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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
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On 2007-08-19 11:57, Jonathan Townsend wrote: It's not. Our society places a premium on convenience. Paying money to learn this, when it can be found on Google for free is no more unethical than 7-11 charging an extra $1.50 for a gallon of milk because we don't wnat to go the 6 extra blocks and stand in line at the local grocery.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-19 11:23, JackScratch wrote: Well, I'm not. I said quite clearly that I may be wrong. The reason I enter into discussions is to think about things a bit more deeply. If I simply assumed I knew everything, I would found my own religion or something. Quote:
I also think a lot of people here don't understand what "ethical" means. Caviat Emptor. I cannot speak for anyone other than myself. Maybe I do not know what "ethical" means. Again, maybe that is why I enter into these discussions. Some people come to internet forums to teach. I come to learn. Jeff |
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Jerrine Special user Busking is work. 629 Posts |
Jeff,
If I came to a forum to teach both the student and the teacher are in for a long afternoon and it's going to be pretty funny too! |
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Patriot Regular user 112 Posts |
Slush Powder - Magnetics - Snow Powder - Black Light Artistry - Pendulums - Metallurgy - Invisible & Vanishing Inks - Flameless Smoke - Flash Paper & Powders - Optical Illusions - And More! All based on techniques and materials openly discussed in common chemistry and science classes for decades...in some cases, centuries! And yet all have found their way into the magical arts. Is it truly unethical to use them and sell the commonly available "secrets" behind them as "magical effects?" Of course not!
As to the need for a preconceived presentation or script...I frequently buy flash paper, slush powder and magnets from magic dealers without a single presentation included. Is this unethical...or am I not, as a serious performer, simply expected to be able to take the "secret" offered and build an effect and presentation that is uniquely and entertainingly my own. Newton published and profited from his "discoveries" of gravity and the bending of light yet failed to present a single, practical application for it. Unethical? |
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Paulo Cabrita Special user 820 Posts |
I know scientific website´s they show that kind of experiences, we use in magic...
This is scientific... |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Sheesh! okay, since it is a science experiment, here's how to do it.
Stick bottle in freezer for 30 minutes to one hour. when you remove, contents in bottle will still be liquid. bang bottom of bottle on hard surface and immediately you will see ice start to form. P.S. if moderators pull this, it is not right since this is science and "NOT" magic. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Yeah, C., but what you don't understand is that someone is selling this effect, which means that your exposure is costing someone money. Which means you are being unethical, since "ethical" means not taking money out of another magicians pocket. And nothing else.
See Drew, I *DO* know what "ethical" means. But then,I'm a confused man. So...Caviat Emptor. And thanks, C. Jeff |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Nope, That is in fact very much one of the two forms of exposure, of which I disapprove, which is why I have reported that post, for exposure.
The reason I said Caviat Emptor, which roughly translates to "buyer beware" is because while this isn't a great effect, and it isn't earth shattering and it is what I would call public domain, that doesn't make it unethical or unethical to sell said information. I have news for you, you can still buy copies of "The Bible", "Great Expectations", The complete works of William Shakespeare, etc. All of which are public domain. You are ethically allowed to sell public domain works. As for the quality of the material, Caviat Emptor, each person has to judge that for themselves. You don't like it, you don't buy it. If the products were fraudulent, or misleading, that would be different, but to my knowledge, they are not. He is selling the information to produce precisely what he represents his product to be. He has the legal and ethical rights to sell this information, so,what exactly is unethical about it? That it doesn't meet your standards of magic effects? Is "Magic By Gosh" unethical? |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Drew, let me say once again that I am on shaky ground--far from being certain about any of this.
There is a difference between selling something which is public domain, such as Shakespeare or the Bible, and selling a "secret" which is not in fact a secret. Furthermore, this is a "secret" which shouldn't even *be* a secret, as it is based on principles which everyone ought to learn in high school. That neither you nor I learned it in high school is irrelevant. I don't recall learning anything about refrigeration, but that doesn't stop me from using my refrigerator without paying some "magician" who possesses the "secret" to tell me how to use it. And I knew exactly what you meant by Caviat Emptor. While my apparent inability to express myself clearly might imply that I am an idiot, I nevertheless am not one. I don't think. Who can be sure? One thing my professors tried to teach me, and one thing I try to teach my students (especially my graduate students, for arrogance tends to increase with the amount of education one receives), is that wisdom is best pursued by remaining in a perpetual state of learning. Once we are certain about something, once we have closed the door on it, we have frozen ourselves into a state of ignorance--even if we possess great learning. We have shut ourselves off to that *one more thing* we might have learned. What bothers me about this whole thread is that I seem to be almost alone in having a problem with selling ice to the Eskimo, or the Brooklyn Bridge to the immigrant, or "how to freeze beer" to those too stupid to think of using Google. I'm not against making a buck. God knows I don't want to be an angel. And I cannot say with confidence that this particular example crosses the line. But I *DO* maintain that there is a line to be crossed--one in which I am exploiting the ignorance of others rather than helping them to grow as human beings. This is my idea of "ethics", though others might disagree. Again, I'm not sure what "ethical" means anymore, especially today. But it is not for a lack of trying. For a quarter of a century I have struggled to understand Plato and Aristotle and Plutarch and Nietzsche and Kant and Hegel and a host of others, and I'm not sure I have even come close to understanding them. But I have tried. And I expect my students to try. But none of us has really achieved wisdom, as far as I know. So I apologize to all who find me preachy or holier-than-thou, because I really am very uncertain in my "vote" for unethical. I wouldn't fine the guy or take away his magician's union card. I wouldn't slap him on the wrist or report him to the moderators of this board. But I don't like what he's doing. If you met someone who didn't know how to read, what would you do? Say, "it's a secret, which I'll reveal for fifty bucks"? Or would you say, "I can teach you for fifty bucks"? Is there a difference between the two? I suppose that's what makes me so strange. I think there *IS* a difference between the two. But I can't really express why with any clarity. Which makes me not wise. But then, if there is one thing I am absolutely certain about, it is that I'm not wise. And, being the strange person that I am, I would seriously consider teaching the person to read for free. That doesn't make me holy, but it does make me feel good about myself. Which ain't a bad thing. Jeff |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Jeff, if you take away any pretnese and self consistancy or historical tradition and simply go from pattern matching words and behavior...ethics is what other people tell you is supposed to be right. Morals is what other people will claim gives them the right to do something even if you feel it is wrong. Not basic notions as they both require use of "the golden rule" in their derivation.
To be more complete, good is that which gets rewarded and right is that which others will admit to doing were they in your place.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Ahhh, Stone! But you see, I don't share the ethics of others. I am my own individual with my own set of standards and values; that being the case, I am not being unethical... Of course you already knew that, hehe!
Since we are talking about ethics, yet again! I find it extremely unethical for various religious groups to knock on my door, on the weekend, and try and convert me. If I wanted to learn about it, I would seek it out myself. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
C- that's an easy one to handle :: If they truly had faith and a workable religion they would not be coming to your door to look for enlightenment or at least a spiritual path.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
JT, perfect! I like that reason.
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
Quote:
What bothers me about this whole thread is that I seem to be almost alone in having a problem with selling ice to the Eskimo, or the Brooklyn Bridge to the immigrant, or "how to freeze beer" to those too stupid to think of using Google. This isn't a matter of being too stupid. I googled this thing in an effort to see what would come about so as to possibly contribute more to the discussion, but the stuff I found was a few different videos of the effect and very confusing scientific explanations of the phenomenon we were witnessing. This is is akin to saying that I should be able to open a book on algebra and be able to understand what it says without the aid of a teacher to truly explain it. By the same analogy, being a teacher (BTW, I did not choose this analagoy to point it directly at you, it's just one that made sense to me so I went with it) is unethical because a teacher takes money to show people things they can learn from books on their own.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Not all teachers take money. In fact, Drew, I am sure you have taught your fair share of things without compensation.
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-22 12:51, C. Loubard wrote: That's true and I have also received a fair share of free instruction as well. However, I also have 30K in student loans that seem to indicate that not all instruction is with out cost I was simply trying to make an analogy that was easy to follow and we could all relate to. Like beauty, right or wrong is usually in the eye of the beholder. I have no problmes paying for information, even if it is something I can readlily find from another source for free, so to me, it's a non issue. To those who think it unethical, that's ok too as we all have the right to our beliefs. For me these types of discussion are usually more about understaning the thought processes of others than they are trying to sell any one on the idea that I am right. Plus, I like a good intellectual debate amongst friends
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Drew, understand and accept who you are, and don't worry about others views of you. worrying about what others think of you is a sure sign of insecurity.
ethics and morals are subjective, and no one has the right to preach to you. personally, as far as I am concerned, all those that try to instill their ethics on me can take a long walk off a short pier and burn in hell. I have ended many year relationships because someone tried to tell me how to run my life... go to hell and run your own sez I |
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
Quote:
Drew, understand and accept who you are, and don't worry about others views of you. worrying about what others think of you is a sure sign of insecurity. I don't care what others think of me as general rule. What I was getting at is that I like to understand people's mind and why they think the way they do and how people with opinions that differ from mine come to the conclusions they do. Psychology was one of my favorite courses in college and while I don't try to psychoanalyze every person I come across, I am fascinated by how two people can look at exactly the same information and come to two totally different conclusions. It is the understanding of how they reached the opposite conclusion that interests me Quote:
personally, as far as I am concerned, all those that try to instill their ethics on me can take a long walk off a short pier and burn in hell. I agree. I try to live my life by looking out for myself and my family while not intentionally scrweing anyone over. I feel that as long as I do that, I am living in ethical manner. It's when I begin to knowingly take advantage of others that I cross that line.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Perfect, you live by your own standards and values... that's all that matters.
I feel that people who try and teach me about what is and isn't ethical have far greater problems in life than just a stupid, magic, secret. These so called, wannabe, holier than thou should learn to live with everyone instead of trying to convert the world to their philosophy. they are no better than the idiots who knock on my door trying to convert me to their religion In my opinion, JT's post, on religious door knockers, sums it up perfectly for these ethics morons |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Thanks
I wonder if there's a market for specialied door-knockers? BTW, the study and exploration of subjective reality/perception and personal logic is not so much a part of client-centered psychology as it is NLP. The difference is that in NLP you have to listen and pay attention to the other person and learn about how their inner world is organized as they are living and relating in it.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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