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S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 20:00, MagicSanta wrote:
I support my wife and my daughter on Magic and always have. The ONLY money that our family makes is thru my Magic. So just remember...when you're out there "competeting" for my job someplace, I hope you know that you're running the risk of taking food from my familys mouth!

Wouldn't the same argument hold if you replaced the word "Magic" with, say "Engineering", or "Management", or a thousand other career categories? If I'm hired as a financial analyst, haven't I run the risk of taking food from the mouths of another financial analyst's family? Does his family's need for food trump my family's need for food?

Yes, I know that there are far more engineering jobs and management jobs and what-have-you than there are magic gigs, but I hope you see the point: everyone who has any job has taken income from someone else who could have fulfilled that job. The you're-taking-food-out-of-someone-else's-mouth argument is not particularly compelling.
Stevethomas
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No, but would you accept that same job for tips?

Steve
MAKMagic
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The point here is - that it WASN'T DONE with mal-intent. And I can speak ONLY for myself - never would I attempt to hand out my card purposfully attempting to take a client away. And say what you will - but they came to the restaurant he was performing in, and he gave them his card. I don't find that to be poaching. I agree with your priciples in this...I do, I just don't think they apply with they way things went down. THAT I think is where the disagreement comes in. If you wish to believe me to be scum for that...then so be it. I'm sure there are plenty of things unrelated to this and magic entirely we'd disagree with of which I'd question your morals on. That's why we're all so special:)
.:Michael Kelley
On the Level, By the Square
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 20:56, Stevethomas wrote:
No, but would you accept that same job for tips?

Interesting question.

Are you familiar with SCORE? It's a group of retired executives who provide management consulting services to small businesses.

They do this for free.

They're competing against people who earn their livings as management consultants, and they do it, in essense, for tips.

So, while I might not be in the position today to accept that same job for tips, I might one day. Would I then? Quite possibly.
Dannydoyle
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So the "food out of the mouth" isn't to compelling huh? Strange position from one who is the "Polite magician" LOL.

Wasn't done with malinitent huh? So it wasn't poaching?

You do fail to mention what exactly you think it was. He tried to get the client to hire him and save money next time.

Hmmmm. Pretty clear really.

Mai Ling and Brian are right. It was PRIVATE. Hunting on private property is poaching. As soon as they paid to have part of the restaurant for themselvs, it was no longer "his turff". Funny as he dosn't own it anyhow.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MAKMagic
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 21:20, Dannydoyle wrote:
So the "food out of the mouth" isn't to compelling huh? Strange position from one who is the "Polite magician" LOL.

Wasn't done with malinitent huh? So it wasn't poaching?

You do fail to mention what exactly you think it was. He tried to get the client to hire him and save money next time.

Hmmmm. Pretty clear really.

Mai Ling and Brian are right. It was PRIVATE. Hunting on private property is poaching. As soon as they paid to have part of the restaurant for themselvs, it was no longer "his turff". Funny as he dosn't own it anyhow.


Actually I think his intent was to let the table know the nights he was there so that next time they plan something they are aware. It's all in how you read it baby:) Like I said - I hope I don't make it on your sharpie list - but if I do, then I know it's because of your opinion. Not morals. Mine are secure. My point in this thread was to point out the senseless arguing(which I guess I have become a part of - bad Mike), where if you step back you can realize the issue at hand isn't nearly as complicated as you have all made it. Anyone not LOOKING for Lyle to have been poaching will find that that is probably not the case. I for one - will give him the benefit of the doubt.
.:Michael Kelley
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Dannydoyle
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Yea you stepped in it.

The inability to learn is not a great quality.

Brian hit the nail on the head with his last sentence.

Just because you are not "looking" for him to be poaching, does not mean he wasn't. Oh and Santa has the list, not me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dynamike
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Quote:
On 2007-08-19 10:56, lylemagic wrote:
I was pro about it and said "no problem," that I'll make myself disappear as we were pretty busy and I had other tables to play. They felt bad but I told them not to worry about it...that it was no big deal...I gave them my card and told them to keep me in mind for other events and let them know when I was performing at the restaurant.


A lot of members are speaking at you. I am going to speak with you. I had to re-read the fine print. I look at what you did was ok because of how you described their feelings. It shows you gave out the card so they would not feel bad, not to solicit: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/solicit I see nothing you did was inappropriate or illegal for using "Freedom of Speech:" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
Dannydoyle
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OKKKKKKKKKKKKkkkkk there we go.

Anyone want to change their minds NOW? Should be pretty clear. My point could not be made better.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
derrick
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I said earlier, this guy was hired by a client of the restaurant to do a job. If he wanted to get paid and who doesn't, he had to do his time. He had a performance to do and he had an area set aside to do it in. There was no reason for one tread on the others turf. One did and bad feeling resulted.

I've performed at at a ton of restaurants for private functions and I have never thought to call ahead to find out if there was another magician performing. Why would I care if I was performing at a private function. On the other hand if a magician happened to be already working there and he/she had already given my client his business card before I arrived and told them he could save them some money in the future, I can see how I might be more than just irritated. His actions were not right, but I think I understand them.

This is just bad business all around.
Dynamike
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Lylemagic, I can understand how you feel because of the remarks some of us left. Just remember what we are all about "Magicians helping Magicians." Forget about the criticizers. You did a good thing for standing up speaking you point. Keep up the good work buddy.

Peace,

Dynamike
lunatik
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Not changing my mind. you've made your point, we've made ours. pretty much that's where it stands and it's not changing on either side. If ya'll want to continue the conversation, we can. If ya'll want to let it go, we can. Either way, we are game to talk about whatever. I have to say that it's been fun.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 20:51, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-08-21 20:00, MagicSanta wrote:
I support my wife and my daughter on Magic and always have. The ONLY money that our family makes is thru my Magic. So just remember...when you're out there "competeting" for my job someplace, I hope you know that you're running the risk of taking food from my familys mouth!

Wouldn't the same argument hold if you replaced the word "Magic" with, say "Engineering", or "Management", or a thousand other career categories? If I'm hired as a financial analyst, haven't I run the risk of taking food from the mouths of another financial analyst's family? Does his family's need for food trump my family's need for food?

Yes, I know that there are far more engineering jobs and management jobs and what-have-you than there are magic gigs, but I hope you see the point: everyone who has any job has taken income from someone else who could have fulfilled that job. The you're-taking-food-out-of-someone-else's-mouth argument is not particularly compelling.


Competing is two magicians trying to get a job that isn't filled yet. This is standard business. What we are talking about here is different. A magician already having a position at a restuarant and another magician trying to under bid or steal his job away. That is just wrong. Why on earth would any talented magician do such an underhanded thing? There are so many jobs available. I can't imagine a situation being so bad that I would have to resort to stealing another magicians job. I can walk into any bar in town and work for free and make more that any trades person makes an hour just in tips. Please tell me how stealing another magicians job is a competent business strategy?
MAKMagic
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 22:26, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea you stepped in it.

The inability to learn is not a great quality.

Brian hit the nail on the head with his last sentence.

Just because you are not "looking" for him to be poaching, does not mean he wasn't. Oh and Santa has the list, not me.


And it doesn't mean he was. Our opinions differ. Simple as that.

Do me a favor...please don't attempt a backdoor insult on me with that inability to learn crap. I'm 27 and more successful than 90% of the other 27 years olds on this planet, at everything I do - the snide remark goes right along with the childishness I spoke of earlier.
.:Michael Kelley
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Dynamike
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Lylemagic, do not take all the negative post seriously. I bet they are really on your side because this thread helped them get so many post. lol I'm on your side too because I'm not a player hater because I'm a congratulater.
Dannydoyle
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Well if you thought it was directed at you let me clarify and appologise. I will clarify who it was said to and appologise to you for it seeming like I was insulting you. I was not.

First off Brian said in his last sentence that it was an experience to be learned from, not a course of action to repeat. He is right.

I was saying that the inability to learn is not a good trait, in responce to that. It seems as if he would do exactly the same thing again, and therefore not learn. I was not speaking to you and again appologise.

It DOES mean he was poaching. You just choose to ignore it. That is fine. BUT again clarify what he did for me if you will.

Now I am speaking to you Mike, what was he doing if not soliciting a client who had already engaged a magician? What would you call it? He offered to "save her a few bucks next time", HIS words not mine.

So what was it he was doing?

See you guys keep saying it is a matter of "opinion" and yet the only opinion you offer is he did nothing wrong. Well if he wasn't poaching what was he doing? Offering to undercut the guy for the next job.

Keep in mind that if the guy had been any good at all, the situation would be worse. The only thing that saved it is the moron acted like a HUGE jerk.

So lets say the guy does a fantastic job, like we assume I or you would do. (no back door insult, I put me there too) This guy comes up to a private party, finds out you are on your way, and offers to "save the client a few bucks". Is this the right thing to do? Simple question, is it poaching? Since it is a private party, the answer is yes. It is not a matter of "opinion".
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MAKMagic
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I see your point...as I noted before. And, the innocence you spoke of before is where I believe this falls into. I think the "save you a few bucks" line itself was inappropriate (although - while the words are what the words are, I truley don't think he meant "screw that guy, come see me"). You yourself mentioned believing it was done in innocence. The comment regarding the few bucks - I concede...not the right thing to say.

The act of handing them the card (minus the saving money comment) is - in my opinion - fine...they are at a restaurant he performs at regularly, AND specifically noted they weren't aware of the fact.
.:Michael Kelley
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kammagic
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I would like to clarify my feelings on this.

I feel Lyle was probably just doing an impulse thing in handing out his card and he was not aware of the ramifications of his actions. I always hand out my cards when leaving a table and I certainly understand how I could mistakingly hand out a card at an inapproprite moment. I'm sure Lyle learned something here and will do it differently next time.

A magician coming into your territory is a rare and awkward event and a situation that needs to be handled with your complete attention. You must be respectful and friendly and most importantly professional. Because as we saw in this story things can get out of hand. First and formost you must introduce yourself to this guy. Let him know who you are and what you do and that you have no problem with him performing. Offer to have a drink or meet later and talk shop. Make friends. There is nothing worse then ignoring the guy then exchanging awkward stares at each other form across sthe room. Perform as far away from where he is performing as possible. Let him have plenty of room. He won't be there long. If all goes well you make a new friend. Beats the hell out of having the manager remove the guy.

, Jonathan
Christopher Lyle
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Just so everyone is clear on this, I never asked the manager to remove the Magician. I was hoping that the manager was just going to go over and let him know he was being disruptive and had received several complaints from other restaurant goers and ask him to change his tune. That's not what happened...but either way, I was glad to see this guy leave.

This will be my last time checking this thread. I'm thru...on to bigger and better things...

Thanks to everyone who agreed with what I did. I have received numerous PM's from people showing support. I appreciate it. Just want this whole mess to crawl under a rock and never come out!
In Mystery,


Christopher Lyle
Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius
For a Good Time...CLICK HERE!
Dynamike
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 23:35, Dannydoyle wrote:

Now I am speaking to you Mike, what was he doing if not soliciting a client who had already engaged a magician? What would you call it? He offered to "save her a few bucks next time", HIS words not mine.

So what was it he was doing?


Good question Danny. I'm glad you asked me that. That is where so much of the understanding lies at in this thread. Lylemagic mentions the private party guest were feeling bad as he was about to leave their table. So he was trying to help them feel comfortable before he left their table without performing for them. Read the fine print carefully:
Quote:
On 2007-08-19 10:56, lylemagic wrote:

I was pro about it and said "no problem," that I'll make myself disappear as we were pretty busy and I had other tables to play. They felt bad but I told them not to worry about it...that it was no big deal...I gave them my card and told them to keep me in mind for other events and let them know when I was performing at the restaurant. Case closed...


Lylemagic never mentions any fees to the guest. If he would of stayed to perform, I would of pictured he was wrong, but he did not. If he would of approached the private party guest knowing there was a magician coming he would of been wrong. He did not know about a different magician until the they told him.
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