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Hart Keene
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Or perhaps you can just give us your real names and the restaurants you perform at? At this point I will actually take the time to call the restaurants you say you work at, just to confirm. That is how sick I am of the "workers" on here...

In fact, I think this is a great idea! Think about it, people calling the restaurants to see when you are performing actually helps you, if you really do work there. Otherwise, it just exposes you. If we start doing this here, we will help the workers and weed out the liars. Anyone else with me?

My restaurant info is on my website, feel free to call and make reservations...

Im calling out all the "workers". If you don't like it, go to a different part of the Café...
-Hart

Check out my website:
Magician Portland Oregon
kammagic
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Toomuchmagic,

The only info about you at the website you supply is this:

Street Performances by:

Mike the Magic Dude
Balloon Twisting & Comedy Magic
July 14, July 28, August 4

--------------------------

If you are a street performer you are in the wrong forum.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 15:34, kammagic wrote:
Toomuchmagic,

The only info about you at the website you supply is this . . . .

Odds are that he already knows that.

Did you really post this for his benefit?
Hart Keene
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So let see those names and restaurants guys! It would also be nice to get the phone numbers of the restaurants, no need to make me work harder than I have to. lol

Some of you might think I am crazy for doing this but I just can't take it anymore! Time to figure out whos who! I wonder how many people will actually step up to the plate! I also wonder who will "disappear" from this thread now that they are being called out.

Even Danny Doyle gave me phone numbers of the resorts he works at quite a while back when I called him out. He is for real. But what about the rest of you? Lets see em boys!

You know how magic and genii have the section where you can see who is performing where? Well we need that here!
-Hart

Check out my website:
Magician Portland Oregon
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 15:45, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-08-21 15:34, kammagic wrote:
Toomuchmagic,

The only info about you at the website you supply is this . . . .

Odds are that he already knows that.

Did you really post this for his benefit?


I posted it because he needs to give us more info then that. Maybe there is more info and I just couldn't find it.
Dannydoyle
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Well it is time to "reappear" on this thread just to clarify things NOT to contribute.

I don't have a personal web page. I know nobody is "calling me out" but I have to admit I kind of get behind the practice. The "armchair guys" are an annoyance at best. Hart, Kamm, Patrick, Santa (regardless of what he does not share) are WORKERS, I know this for a fact, not an opinion.

The very idea that you can go and steal a client is what I was having a problem with and still do. I saw how there was NO changing their mind so I didn't want to keep banging my head on a rock.

Kamm, regardless of philisophical approach differences we have, I havn't had problems with him at all. Hart, not a problem with him either. It is annoying how people "claim" to be things on the internet.

So here is my big claim. I am a guy who shows up and does my job. Not the best, but hopefully not the worst.

I have worked at restaurants for a LONG time, although do not get to do as much of it as I would like any more as other things get in the way. As Hart elluded to I work for a pretty big resort company. Performing, but the hypnosis show.

NOT a multi faceted business man like others who quote "business ethisc" (a laughable term in the first place but not going to quibble) just a guy who does a job and gets his money. I personally would NEVER act as these guys seem to think it is ok. That must be because of my complete lacking in the education necessary to run a sucessfull company.

I guess it is true, you can get further with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
toomuchmagic
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I have been in entertainment for over 15 years. Theater, television, music, & magic.

however, my background in magic is irrelevant to these points:

1. anti-competitive practices are frowned upon in any industry. Please read a business ethics book. I am pretty sure you can find that on wikipedia or any webpage relevant to business ethics. I am sorry but magic/entertainment is really no different from any other business. If you would like to explain to me (without chastising me for no reason) I would love to listen.

2. you can not create your own standards or rules and expect others to know and live by them.

3. The BIGGEST point I am trying to get across here is that in the story as we read it...Lyle did not "MOVE IN" on the other guys client. He left his business card.

Posted: Aug 21, 2007 5:19pm
I am not sure why I need to present a CV to disagree with your point, and why others may get away without one because they agree with you.
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 17:15, toomuchmagic wrote:
I have been in entertainment for over 15 years. Theater, television, music, & magic.

however, my background in magic is irrelevant to these points:

1. anti-competitive practices are frowned upon in any industry. Please read a business ethics book. I am pretty sure you can find that on wikipedia or any webpage relevant to business ethics. I am sorry but magic/entertainment is really no different from any other business. If you would like to explain to me (without chastising me for no reason) I would love to listen.

2. you can not create your own standards or rules and expect others to know and live by them.

3. The BIGGEST point I am trying to get across here is that in the story as we read it...Lyle did not "MOVE IN" on the other guys client. He left his business card.


I'm sure Lyle gave out his card by impulse and looking back at it now he sees that it probably was not a good idea. If I were the outside guy and saw another magicians card at the table I was already hired to perform at I would of thought "What a jerk". I am sure the customers brought it up too. "Hey there is a magician that works here are you as good as him?" They love to do that when more then one magician is in the room. "Can you do the trick that he does?" blah, blah, blah. that's why when he found out that the table had hired a magician to perform at their table he should of said excuse me and wished them a good night and left as quickly as possible. He was in another magicians territory! You don't hang around and introduce yourself and you certainly don't give them your card which is a blatent attempt at getting bussiness from them.

Your refusal to answer the questions inadvertantly answered the questions. If you had restuarant experience you would of said so. If you had been performing magic professionally for a long time you would of said that too. This forum is specifically for restuarant workers. I don't want to hear what some outsider thinks is right or wrong. I want to hear from the guys who have been there and done that. The real workers.

My professor in college used to tell us that we could question or challenge anything he says but we better be able to back that up with experience and facts. I always respected and agreed with that. If you have the experience and knowledge to back up your statements I will listen to what you have to say. Since this is strickly a restaurant workers thread and a question specifically about working magic in a restuarant. Your input doesn't hold as much weight as the rest of us who have been there and done that for many years. There are many areas here at the Magic Café many of which I avoid because I do not have the experience or knowledge in those areas to be helpful. You need to find the thread that better fits your experience and knowledge.

, Jonathan
toomuchmagic
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My goodness you're giving me quite the headache. I was unaware of the ****ing contest that is going on in here.

Like I said. My experience is irrelevant to the points I am making.

Since when does withholding or not offering information make it not so. You obviously do not take you professors word to heart when you accuse me of such things without experience and knowledge to back it up.

If your experience and knowledge of magicians is that they are poor sports, whiny, catty, and think the world owes them a handshake and a pat on the back then you are correct in assuming that the other guy would be upset. I myself am only trying to point out (again) that a performer handing out a business card is neither unethical nor a crime.
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 18:11, toomuchmagic wrote:
My goodness you're giving me quite the headache. I was unaware of the ****ing contest that is going on in here.

Like I said. My experience is irrelevant to the points I am making.

Since when does withholding or not offering information make it not so. You obviously do not take you professors word to heart when you accuse me of such things without experience and knowledge to back it up.

If your experience and knowledge of magicians is that they are poor sports, whiny, catty, and think the world owes them a handshake and a pat on the back then you are correct in assuming that the other guy would be upset. I myself am only trying to point out (again) that a performer handing out a business card is neither unethical nor a crime.


Handing out your bisiness card is a common business practice and is not a crime or unethical. But in the situation that Lyle presented, it was disrespectful to the other magician.

Lets face it. You are not a restuarant worker.
lunatik
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Exactly toomuch. The points that we are making are clear. We're talking about business practices, not what you do for a living. Apparently a handful of people here think that it matters what you do for a living as to whether or not standard business practices apply or not. Business practices are business practices. I wish I was moving to one of your towns so I could (and would) take one of your gigs away from you. Maybe a decrease in income would snap you back into reality that you are not owed by anyone your current and future employment. Now if you are an awesome worker and have correctly built your working relations with customers, staff, and management, I probably would have trouble taking your job from you. But for a handful of you, it wouldn't be any problem at all. Carry on with the "pie in the sky" job security discussions lol.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 18:11, toomuchmagic wrote:

Like I said. My experience is irrelevant to the points I am making.


Actually much of what you have written is irrelevant now thta you mention it. You are obviously not a magician by trade. Lunatik same applies buddy. I think when you re read your posts about "Restaurant magicians have it easy" and "you restaurant magicians" it is pretty obvious. Your angry that guys can HAVE 15 year gigs and you cant.

Well talking a lot of smack from behind a fake name, is pretty easy. Here is where I respect Christopher. HE is at least saying it with HIS NAME and he is saying it proud. He is not hiding. He has an opinion and that is cool with him if we disagree with it.

I do wholeheartedly disagree with it, but I can respect the man behind it.

You 2 are a different matter entirley. You hide and tell us of "business ethics" as if such a thing is even possible. You tell us how to act, how we are too content, say you will take jobs from guys, tell us how the world works, all from behind a fake name. Wow holds a lot of water.

It is why I originally felt the need to not respond. But you guys have gotten SO out of control there are only 2 explinations. First off you are doing it just to start a problem. I hope this is the case. The second one, well it is obvious what that one is so we won't go into it.

SO lets follow Harts advice. I too am sick of that annonomous flaming and telling us how to do our jobs properly. Come out of the closet guys and let us know who you are.

Posted: Aug 21, 2007 6:54pm
Oh as for handing the card being unethical or a crime.

Ethics are a personal choice, not set on others by us. There is no standard set up for how to act for there is no governing body. So the term hardly applies.

A crime? Please not even close.

A move from a hack and a guy who has some things to learn? Maybe.

Lets at least understand what it is we are talking about. Lyle started a thread about someone trying to steal gigs. THEN 2 days later tells us how he did exactly the same thing.

When he said "Go to my web site next time, and see when I am here so I can save you a few bucks", it was an attempt to try to take a client who books magicical entertainment.

Put aside the arguements of "right and wrong", we can all have our own opinion about that and that is fine. BUT what he did is a FACT and not in dispute. What is in dispute is only if he was right in doing so. That is a choice everyone has to make for themselves.

Now the "business gurus" who choose to hide who they are seem to think it is fine. The working pros, seem to disagree.

That all aside, as it works out he DID try to get the client to use him in the future. And even undercut the guy to do it. Again I am not saying it is right or it is wrong, but it IS WHAT HE DID.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 18:33, lunatik wrote:
Exactly toomuch. The points that we are making are clear. We're talking about business practices, not what you do for a living. Apparently a handful of people here think that it matters what you do for a living as to whether or not standard business practices apply or not. Business practices are business practices. I wish I was moving to one of your towns so I could (and would) take one of your gigs away from you. Maybe a decrease in income would snap you back into reality that you are not owed by anyone your current and future employment. Now if you are an awesome worker and have correctly built your working relations with customers, staff, and management, I probably would have trouble taking your job from you. But for a handful of you, it wouldn't be any problem at all. Carry on with the "pie in the sky" job security discussions lol.


So lunatik. Where are you from and what is your real name? You know who I am but are you big enough to stop hiding behind a screen name and stand behind your opinion? Who are you???? If you cant even say who you are then I don't even want to consider what you are saying...
-Hart

Check out my website:
Magician Portland Oregon
MAKMagic
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Wow kids - I have been following this since Lyle's first post. I saw the arguments posted and OK, followed along thoroughly enjoying the (albeit heated) discussion.

The fact of the matter is this - you are all defending your points to the death. While I can understand both peoples points - I can honestly tell you this...if someone came into my restaurant (You can tell me it's not "MY" restaurant all day - until someone comes into YOUR restaurant and attempts to solicit themselves to the owner as a restaurant magician, all of a sudden they are on YOUR turf) The jerk magician that showed up was simply that...and frankly, if everyone in his area stole every gig from him going forward, I would think it was fine. The REAL fact is that someone, who didn't know the restaurant had a house magician, booked a magician, Lyle simply let them know that he is there. End of story.

It may or may not have incited the illicit behavior of the other post, but it's irrelevant. When the other magician found out Lyle was there, he should have introduced himself and let him know he didn't know this ahead of time (or done so afterwards).

Lyle - my hat off to you sir. Some of us may have dragged his ass outside and taught him some *** manners.

As far as toomuchmagic is concerned, he has worked MANY different varieties of magic and the entertainment industry. I can vouch for him personally. As for our websites. I'm sorry you don't see any fun pictures and bio's. They'll be there, but we are waiting to get our promo shots done - you should see this in a few weeks.

I welcome you all to visit me at my restaurant of which you can find on our website. While I don't perform magic full time, I do quite well on the side with it. You have a problem with that? Tough. I, unfortunately didn't start working with magic until I already had a full time career. My wife stays home with my 3 kids in our house and 2 cars. Making the switch to full time performer isn't an option for me right now.

I think everyone here are acting like a bunch of children fighting over a frikken cookie. You don't have to agree, and no one is a slime bag because they disagree. I haven't seen ONE person on here who thinks it's OK to get their gigs by stealing them from someone else.

Quit your whining.
.:Michael Kelley
On the Level, By the Square
MagicSanta
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You know, if you asked nicely your wife may let you take one of the cars to work.

PS: I'm still looking for floaties that fit me so when I get tossed off the bridge in Conneticut I don't die like a Kennedy date.

Posted: Aug 21, 2007 8:00pm
Based on what I've read, I will say that anyone who justifys taking another persons job is scum. I'm not like many Magicians out there who "claim" to be a professional. "I AM" a professional. I support my wife and my daughter on Magic and always have. I've never had a "real" job if you will. I've been lucky enough to share my talents with the world full time. The ONLY money that our family makes is thru my Magic. So just remember...when you're out there "competeting" for my job someplace, I hope you know that you're running the risk of taking food from my family's mouth!

FOR THE RECORD...I've never lost a gig to another Magician who pulls this bs...but it's still aggravating to have it happen. When I walk into a restaurant and I'm told they have another Magician already working there, I simply leave my card with the Manager and ask them to please pass it on to the performer so we can meet and hopefully become friends.

I usually just throw out the cards that I'm given...but I think I'm going to start calling these people and giving them a piece of my mind and try to stop the madness from continuing.
MAKMagic
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 20:00, MagicSanta wrote:
Based on what I've read, I will say that anyone who justifys taking another persons job is scum. I'm not like many Magicians out there who "claim" to be a professional. "I AM" a professional. I support my wife and my daughter on Magic and always have. I've never had a "real" job if you will. I've been lucky enough to share my talents with the world full time. The ONLY money that our family makes is thru my Magic. So just remember...when you're out there "competeting" for my job someplace, I hope you know that you're running the risk of taking food from my familys mouth!

FOR THE RECORD...I've never lost a gig to another Magician who pulls this bs...but it's still aggrivating to have it happen. When I walk into a restaurant and I'm told they have another Magician already working there, I simply leave my card with the Manager and ask them to please pass it on to the performer so we can meet and hopefully become friends.

I usually just throw out the cards that I'm given...but I think I'm going to start calling these people and giving them a piece of my mind and try to stop the madness from continuing.



Madon'e - exactly, and no one here thinks it's OK to steal other magicians clients. I don't think Lyle's actions falls into that catagory as do the others that have disagreed.

And I hope the full time performer info wasn't geared torward me. I explained I had too much responsibilty by the time I BEGAN performing proffesionally. I don't think that requires more explanation. And IF you think that means I'm not a "proffessional" then I guess you write your own dictionary and consider yourself more important than I in your own book. (if not then cool:))

PS. I LOVED the Kennedy joke though. LOL nice!
.:Michael Kelley
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MagicSanta
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Oops! I'm sorry, that was suppose to come up as a quote from anothe thread so folks would know Lyle doesn't poach. That is his post.

Nothing is better than goofing on Kennedys.
MAKMagic
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 20:20, MagicSanta wrote:
Oops! I'm sorry, that was suppose to come up as a quote from anothe thread so folks would know Lyle doesn't poach. That is his post.

Nothing is better than goofing on Kennedys.


Actually - Goofing on Gore and the Clintons runs right up there
.:Michael Kelley
On the Level, By the Square
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2007-08-21 20:08, MAKMagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-08-21 20:00, MagicSanta wrote:
Based on what I've read, I will say that anyone who justifys taking another persons job is scum. I'm not like many Magicians out there who "claim" to be a professional. "I AM" a professional. I support my wife and my daughter on Magic and always have. I've never had a "real" job if you will. I've been lucky enough to share my talents with the world full time. The ONLY money that our family makes is thru my Magic. So just remember...when you're out there "competeting" for my job someplace, I hope you know that you're running the risk of taking food from my familys mouth!

FOR THE RECORD...I've never lost a gig to another Magician who pulls this bs...but it's still aggrivating to have it happen. When I walk into a restaurant and I'm told they have another Magician already working there, I simply leave my card with the Manager and ask them to please pass it on to the performer so we can meet and hopefully become friends.

I usually just throw out the cards that I'm given...but I think I'm going to start calling these people and giving them a piece of my mind and try to stop the madness from continuing.



Madon'e - exactly, and no one here thinks it's OK to steal other magicians clients. I don't think Lyle's actions falls into that catagory as do the others that have disagreed.

And I hope the full time performer info wasn't geared torward me. I explained I had too much responsibilty by the time I BEGAN performing proffesionally. I don't think that requires more explanation. And IF you think that means I'm not a "proffessional" then I guess you write your own dictionary and consider yourself more important than I in your own book. (if not then cool:))

PS. I LOVED the Kennedy joke though. LOL nice!


Here is where you are dead wrong! 3 people are definatly say it is ok to take another magicians job. He handed her the card and offered to save her a few bucks.

Now if that WASN'T trying to solicite future business from the MORON'S client, what was it then? I don't care if you think it was right or wrong, it is what it is. HE DID try to take the job, and the other 2 children think it is ok. Wheather you vouch for them or not means nothing. THEY say it is ok. They call it "competition". So you agree then we can assume?

Like I siad take the heat out of the discussion and that was what happened. It may have been "innocent" and I can take that as an answer. BUT to be proud, and willing to do the same thing again. Scum.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
BrianMillerMagic
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Handing your card to another magician's client at a private party is unprofessional, rude, and disrespectful in the business of magic. I agree with Danny: if it was done innocently and without realizing that it was improper then fair enough, but it is a mistake to be learned from, not a course of action to be repeated.
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