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Y2John Inner circle 1498 Posts |
Great post Magicsquared
To the comments mota made about me not putting much effort into the book, well the book is the first ive ever heard of Neil Slade and from the sounds of it the same goes for mota. So my comments were correct. I totally agree with Magicsquared |
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pogo New user 19 Posts |
If someone was truly fooled by cloudbusting they would do what this girl did with the card: examine it, think about it, replay the effect in their mind. Of course there is no card to examine with cloudbusting, so what do they do? They look at the sky. And the more someone looks at the sky, the more obvious cloudbusting becomes.
Hi, I agree with you entirley I DO NOT OWN THE BOOK IN QUESTION, However, I do have an audio tape of the effect and basic method put out some time ago by Doc Hilford (it was not the only effect on the tape) maybe my friends are just intelegent but they are aware that clouds disperse with time! those that arn't are after you perform this effect |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
Despite the very well thought out logic above I can and do get great results with it. You can speculate all you want about post-effect reconstruction but that is just your desired belief. I don't see the street people post-effect but do see the scientists on a daily basis. You create the reality tunnel by your presentation and to some extent that will control their post-effect thoughts.
Before Geller bending objects was known but not "famous". There are many other effects that will develop in the future. This was addressed in multiple publications, not the least of which was the Sheils Effect first published so many years ago. Docc Hillford has always been very uneven in quality. He is not this book and it is not a valid comparison. I did know of Neil Slade and have some of his products. I actually pm'd one of the authors pre-pub and suggested he look at Neil Slade and was informed he was already in the book. By your logic your comments are therefore incorrect. Your incomplete reading of the book before reviewing it remains a fact. Nonetheless I do hope you sell your book for what you are asking. |
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Y2John Inner circle 1498 Posts |
Ok I was wrong about you not knowing him, but that doesn't mean I never thoroughly went through the book as I did. I wouldn't have performed if not as even though I don't think it's good, I always try things out before fully deciding and wouldn't want to let myself down with a rubbish performance.
I had never heard of Neil Slade before this book and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Anyway I'm not going to go back and fourth debating on if I gave the book the proper attention or not as only I can know this. I don't think the material is good or that strong. It's your choice if you wanna perform this stuff and study the material, but I don't want to as I don't believe it's worth it, I don't believe it gives the specs an astonishing, magical or memorable experience and I don't feel it's a convincing or entertaining effect. |
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doug brewer V.I.P. 1142 Posts |
Does this work for smog? I live in southern California. Not a lot of clouds - a marine layer in the morning, then a brown haze in the afternoon. Now if I could point up into the smog and see the face of, say, David Copperfield staring down at me - well then we'd have something
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
Personally I'm glad john and other posted there thoughts on this. I tired of the continual praise of everything without critisium. if everything is so perfect why does so much suck.
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Y2John Inner circle 1498 Posts |
Cheers Joshua Barrett
Mota you clearly just don't like the fact that ive given my true opinion of this, and it's not the view you wanted. I can't be bothered to keep repeating myself over and over, but I did put effort in to working on the effect and reading the book. So I'll summarise this thread: It is a review of a book in which I gave my real opinion on what I thought and felt about the material within. Some have enjoyed the fact that I have a different view and agree with me, others disagree and that's ok. Then there's some who just can't seem to accept the fact that not everyone loves the material and come up with excuses to try and dismiss my review (and when I say some I mean Mota). I won't be replying to anymore of Mota's comments as I feel ive explained enough in that regard. |
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Joe Roberts Special user 860 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-28 22:32, mota wrote: God help me, if I ever happen upon an MD who would fall for cloud busting I would just go ahead and remove my own appendix. |
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Sean W. Burke Loyal user Washington D.C. 300 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-29 20:04, mota wrote: You are assuming I bought the book, which I did not. Additionally, I was unaware that inorder to be famous and well known you must read a specific book first. My apologies. |
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Y2John Inner circle 1498 Posts |
Lol tell me about it
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inidyls Veteran user NYC 315 Posts |
Actually I did not buy the book either.
It was given to me by someone who didn't like it. And out of the kindness of my heart I gave it back to him so he could sell it. |
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Y2John Inner circle 1498 Posts |
Like I said, it does work... it's just not impressive, not convincing and not very good.
Im sure many here have already read through all the hype and praise etc, but I feel differently about it. Im not gonna be making anymore comments in this thread as ive really said everything I can on this. Thanks to those who have accepted my opinion and contributed to this thread with there opinions (those who agree and disagree). |
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts |
Mota, you're a better man than I. If I had something that was as miraculous as you feel cloudbusting is, I'd be happy when others dismissed it and ignored it. "Ha,ha! The fools! Good. The fewer people performing this little miracle the better," I'd say. I'm selfish that way. Thank you for modeling a better way to be.
In fact, the rabidity with which you defend this effect reminds me of when people get taken by scam artists and then are ashamed to admit it so they in turn try to bring more people into the fold. I understand. Nobody likes to feel duped. But I think this is a really important issue what we're talking about here. And by that I mean being receptive to an audience's true responses, not just their initial surprise or kind words they might give you because it's embarrassing for them to watch you go through the whole cloudbusting ritual in earnest and then point out that it's obvious for them what's going on. Some people blink when they practice their pass and miss the weak spots. In the same way, other people "blink" after they perform an effect and miss people's true reactions. And I think not being able to gauge people's true reactions is one of the biggest weaknesses a performer can have. So, in that spirit, here is an OPEN INVITATION TO ALL CLOUDBUSTERS. Come to New York City. We'll meet up, have dinner, see a show--it will be a great time. Then we'll go out and you'll perform some cloudbusting for six random people one at a time. After the performance we will sit down with the spectator, get a coffee, and offer them $20 if they can guess how it's done. It is my contention that at least 5 out of the 6 people will guess the underlying methodology of cloudbusting. To make it interesting we could both put up some money... say $2000 to the winner? I'm willing to put up more if you are. We can put the money in an escrow account and the whole contest can be judged by an independent third party. As I said, this is an open invitation for Mota, Devin, or anyone else who thinks people are genuinely fooled by this effect. I am completely serious about this. |
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thehawk Inner circle 2275 Posts |
Some people have to realize that this is not for everybody. A few don't like it, is that a crime?
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Devin Knight V.I.P. 2493 Posts |
I'm going to jump in here hopefully for the last time. I'm neither condemning or praising either side. We said on the first page this book would be controversial. It has proven to be so.
I'll be the first to admit that basic cloud busting done by itself may not fool everyone. You have to pick the right time and the right person. Also presentation is everything and I'm not just talking about passing out. Tying it with the voodoo card I speak in the book, makes it a more entertaining effect. The ink on the card vanishes and so does the cloud. Using the Gypsy cloud effect as the cloud changes and disappears ties in with the patter theme. For myself I've had tremendous success with the Gypsy Cloud especially on college campuses. We have to remember the book is more than making a cloud vanish, using Jerome's ideas for cloud sculpting or causing a cloud shaped like a card to vanish as the card does from the deck takes all this from beyond being transparent. I realize that cloud busting ALONE may be transparent, that is why we strive in the book to tie it in with other effects as a bonus. When the spoon bends, and the cloud melts as the same time the spoon is pointing at the cloud FOOLS even astute spectators. They are baffled by the spoon bending but with the cloud vanishing as the same time, it makes them wonder if perhaps something really is going on here. Let me state this PUBLICALLY I would NEVER go out and just vanish a cloud without tying it into some kind of presentation or routine. The idea of showing an empty glass covering it and the causing a cloud to vanish, only to find the glass now full of what appears to be CLOUD ELEMENTS is a miracle to anyone NO MATTER how smart they are. They may think they know how the cloud vanishes but when you uncover the empty glass and a cloud element oozes forth, they begin to question their sanity. Sure some reasonably intelligent people may know the life span of clouds...HOWEVER when JEROME turns RED all over and becomes HOT to the touch while the cloud is vanishing...people wonder...EVEN skeptics wonder...they see the apparent psychic manifestation going on, clouds may vanish, but people don't turn RED and hot to the touch. By golly that cloud is vanishing at the same time, MAYBE he really does have something to do with it. Regardless, whether you love cloud busting or hate it. That is NOT the point of the book. Little has been written on the subject. Jerome and I set out the write the definitive reference book on the subject. We tried to include almost every possible thing possible with clouds. Some extremely practical, others not as practical but workable when the conditions were right. We don't all like the same things. For example I loathe LINKING RING routines. With few exceptions I find them (personally)boring and I sigh every time I see some magician pull out a set. Despite that many books have been written on linking rings with tons of moves, some clever, some boring, and some contrived. However I realize some performers LOVE the rings (in fact so much they will do 5 minute routines with them). I've talked with lay people. Some find the rings to be entertaining, others find it extremely boring. It depends on the person. The same applies to cloud busting. This is just another effect in the universe of magic. Some of you guys HATE it, you think it's transparent. That's ok. Others of you swear by it and say this has built your career. You guys are doing it right. I think this book serves a need. There has never been a detailed book like this on the subject. If you don't know the secrets behind cloud busting, then this book reveals them all to you. Even if you decide NOT to do cloud busting, the book will add to your knowledge of magic. Many have said even though they wouldn't do cloud busting that the ideas on presentation can be applied to other forms of magic. Finally and this has been mentioned elsewhere, the information on how to approach people on the street is valuable for any form of street magic. This is the results of years of experience approaching people on the street. Here's another way to look at this book. Many of us detest trick decks and cards. We prefer to do it using sleights instead of gaffs. Some of you look down on those who result to using gaff cards, because a REAL card guy would use sleights. Maybe. However, if you a pure sleight guy and a book comes out on great GAFF card tricks and it is a well produced book with good tricks then why knock it. Even though it is not your cup of tea. There are those who want or need to use the gaffs, so the book fills a need for them. Over the years many magicians have wondered about cloud busting. Little was available for them to research. Every form of magic needs to have at least a definitive work on the subject, whether you like the trick or not. Hopefully this book will prove to be the Bible of Cloud Busting for those who want to do it or learn about it. Why don't we leave it at that? I'm sure Jerome, who is away for the last week, will make his own comments later. Respectfully, Devin Knight |
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Devin Knight V.I.P. 2493 Posts |
I just wanted to throw in, I am NOT upset with any of these comments. Nobody is attacking us personally. Some people are just saying they don't like the effect. WE didn't invent the concept, we just expounded on an old idea.
Even John in his first post stated, the book was WELL PRODUCED and delivered what it promised. He said the effect may work for others but not for him. That is cool folks. No Problem. I've read some great card books, but personally didn't like the effects even though the author had worked them nightly in a restaurant. To me they just wasn't that convincing. I'm glad they had success with it. We all see performers do stuff, tricks that when we try them, seem to flop. We wonder why they don't go over as well with us. It's because the trick doesn't fit us. I've seen guys try cloud busting and totally flop and yes I have felt embarrassed for them. It wasn't for them. Many people have stated (some in other forums)this only works if people BELIEVE you are for real. That is partly true. Not trying to toot my horn, but when I do this, it rocks. That is because I look the part, many people think I am really psychic, some are afraid of me. When I vanish a cloud, many people think it is for real because they think I'm some person with dark powers. Now I know some of you are laughing at this but there are many people who still believe Gellar has real powers. Heck, Jerome is even better than me on this. If you have seen Jerome, you know he looks and lives the part. Jerome is a true Shaman and when you see him, he looks like some guy who has the power to control the elements. When he does and turns red people believe. Let's take a simple card trick, you force a card and name it. Now to most people this is just a card trick. They assume you are a magician. However, you guys know as well as I do, there are people who can force a card and make the same spectators think they are really psychic. Card trick never crosses their mind. I think the card trick is a great example. One guy forces a card and it just a clever trick. Another guy using a WEAKER force, apparently reads your mind and you wonder if he really is psychic. It's all in the way you PRESENT YOURSELF to people. There are people who really BELIEVE that Jerome and I change the weather. They tell others about it, they talk about it. Yes, I've had my share of skeptics but they are fewer than the believers. People have to look at the big picture. They look at your background. Now granted the average joe blow can't come out and say he can change the weather. He will be laughed at. However, if you have a reputation of doing the unexplainable, driving cars blindfolded, getting world fame with the Glass Box Prediction, bending metal, etc. then people look at you in a different light. When you have a background like this, reporters, bookers and others take you seriously. When you talk about using your mind to clear the sky they sit up and take notice. If you've done all this other stuff and they have seen it or aware of it, your credibility goes up. Sure magicians use trickery to bend metal, but just because they do (because they don't have real powers)doesn't mean I can't do it for real. This is the approach Geller took. Just because clouds vanish in time, doesn't mean I didn't make it vanish sooner AND FASTER using my psychic powers. This is the DOUBT you must put into the spectator's mind. Even if someone thinks they know how clouds vanish, they are amazed at the fact that the cloud they chose vanished and extremely fast to boot. Much faster than they would expect. This is what helps sell the fact you are controlling the cloud and it is not a natural occurance. Jerome and I have been highly successful using this approach. We create Doubt. I realize everyone can't do this. Some of you can, others cannot. Jerome even RIPS holes in huge THUNDER STORM CLOUDS. These techniques may be explained in the 2nd volume of the book. This is NOT something most people can explain NO MATTER HOW intelligent they are. This is what is meant by those who posted MOST WILL NOT GET IT. Some post they did get it, but they really didn't. Until you realize that REAL CLOUD BUSTING is the ability to create DOUBT in the skeptics mind, then you really haven't gotten it. Some of the above comments are taken from a planned second volume on cloud busting on how to sell this to the skeptics and people with scientific minds. Devin |
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts |
Okay, nevermind.
I was told trying to debate the merits of this effect would be like arguing with an ottoman and apparently that's true. Please continue to ignore the logic based arguments myself and others have made. Continue to suggest that we don't get it or that we're not as skilled performers as you. Continue to underestimate your audience. That attitude has only kept magic/mentalism in the toilet of public perception for the past 100 years or so. Why change things now? As I said, controlling the weather would probably be the most powerful effect one could perform. Cloudbusting, however, does not look like controlling the weather, it looks like taking credit for natural phenomena. If you get really into it, turn red when you perform it, and start sweating, you can actually embarrass your audience into giving you a reaction. If that's your idea of a powerful performance, have at it. Show me some evidence that someone has "made a reputation" by peforming cloudbusting as you say. Why does the media ignore this incredibly powerful effect? I have an open wager to ANYONE who wants to prove how well this effect works. Why debate it when we can prove it one way or the other? I am in NYC for most of the year, and in LA quite frequently for work and we could do it in either place. In addition to any amount you'd like to wager, I will also pay airfare and hotel if you win the bet. And if you win I would happily pay out and introduce you to people in the media who would LOVE to publicize this. Send me a PM and we can set it up. For now I'm done with this thread, sorry, it's just too frustrating. It's full of the self-delusion that ruins magic. |
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Vinnie Laraway Inner circle 1272 Posts |
I only read a few posts in thie section, but like I said before, you guys that are against this are thinking way too much about the actual method! Everyone's objective when cloudbusting is to ELIMINATE that thought from the spectators before they even think about it. You have to present it as something so impossible that it would be silly for them to think the method is so simple.
that's all I'm going to say... You guys are vicious! -Vinnie |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
In the Introduction to Cloud Busting Secrets, Devin Knight states: "In this book we teach you all we know about cloud magic. We hold nothing back."
If this is true, why is there a proposed Vol. 2? |
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Blindside785 Inner circle Olympia, WA 4541 Posts |
If you read in the longer thread you would know why.
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