Just interested in this as a real beginner...I've found plenty of awesome advice here and amazing insight into how to perform. But one thing that really concerns me is how !@#$%y this place is! I mean I don't think you can read through three threads without two of them descending into personal bickering and trying to get one over the other guy...seems like a lot of people here aren't too mature when it comes to relating to other magicians/entertainers. Just the deluge of hate towards famous ones is enough, but then to see how much people attack each other here I was amazed...

So is this what the magical community is like in general? Is the Magic Circle filled with personal rivalries and petty politics? this is an honest question, not trying to bait...

I think you'll find that any community is like this. You can't find me a segment of society that doesn't contain both good, decent, respectful people and complete self-centered jerks.

Personally, I just try to stay out of the politics of it all and do my own thing. When I do that, I do find that there is an awful lot of good out there, and that most people, deep down, are really good people and are willing to help.

There are always a few jerks around, especially on the internet. In the IRL magic community you will find that the whole is pretty good. One of the few entertainment mediums where the amateurs have pretty good access to the top professionals. At magic conventions folks are generally very friendly and more than willing to help a fellow magi. On the net, well anybody can join a forum and there are those who make it their life's work (and do they ever need to get a life) to go in and be disruptive on boards and forums. They figure out enough about magic by reading to appear to belong, but they don't. And some actually don't even try to appear to belong, but the mods eventually flush them out. As far as lack of maturity, well I think you will find in the world today a lot of people with a lack of maturity. We do have all ages represented on the board, not everybody's age is apparent. We have some very mature young magicians who are exceptional in their skill and knowledge of magic and we have some adults who act like they are pre-teens, but so does the world. If you read threads about magic clubs you will find some have great groups, that get along well, share, help each other learn and improve, then there are the few where one or two people are bound and determined to have it their way or destroy the whole thing. I honestly can't think of any situation in our real society that is much different. But on the whole, compared to most IRL magician contact I've had over the past 5+ decades, I'd say the IRL magic community fares a bit better than the internet community.

I don't believe that it represents the wider magic community any more than any other forum represents its community. Due to the anonymity of the Internet, people are freed from a lot of the social structures that typically govern human interaction.

In addition, anyone can join a forum and instantly become the Owner of the One True Way(TM). "You are not a REAL <whatever> if you don't <whatever>" is par for the course, whether you are talking about magic, cars, photography, religion, etc.

It takes all kinds of people to make this world, likewise in the magic community - wherever they are.

Just focus on the positive side of the forum, the exchange of knowledge with magicians genuine in helping others. And avoid participating in any negative discussions.

As for me, I just focus on the positive aspects - asking questions to gain knowledge and contribute back (from whatever I know and can share) to those serious in learning the art of magic.

Cool, good to hear that it's just a forum thing I guess I gave it more weight because a lot of the people 'arguing' seem to be working professionals or at least present themselves as such.

Although I have to agree strongly with you Photius about amateurs having access to experts...I can already see that from my short time here and hanging out in magic shops and it is something I really like - we've lost the whole mentor system throughout most of society (with only a few holdouts) and it was a real pleasure to see it so promoted.

I agree with Photius as I meet magicians every time I attend the Magic Castle (which is often) and I almost always am meeting magicians who are willing to share and help. I have also found here on the forums that others are the same. There are always a few everywhere that have to bring in the negative or try to stir up trouble sometimes just for the sake of being able to do it.

Just try to enjoy the good side of the forums and get all the useful information out of it that is available.

What I am about to say may seem to some, especially those who don't know me personally as self serving given that I have been a Magic Dealer for the last 35 years. But, I'd like to offer some comments on the magic community that I have found almost unvarying for the entirety of that 35 years.

First, if you think that what bickering that 'does' go on in the Magic Café if problematic then you have never been on forums where it REALLY IS a problem. Don't try Alt.magic just to see what I mean, but oh, my! For the most part I find the folks on the Café to be the literal cream of magic in all the best sense of that word, and I mean that sincerely. Do we get argumentative at times? Do some of us even get a little critical at times? You bet. But, excepting a very few instances, considering the incredible number and variety of posts that the Café generates it is statistically so small that I just overlook it for the most part.

Again, consider the AMOUNT of data here on the Café! It is literally stunning. I frequently come looking for reviews of new magic items to sell. In almost no case was I unable to find some information that helped in my decision to offer or not offer that item to my clients.

Second, in the 35 years that I have been in the magic industry I have yet to find a more generous and basically nice group of folks than those in magic. It is amazing actually how approachable are most of the biggest names in our industry. Not all of them. There are some goofs, misanthropes, unkind and stingy types. But, they are a remarkably small percentage of the whole even considering that closed and secretive nature of what we do. I think that's the really amazing part. Go to ANY magic club meeting, I.B.M. or S.A.M. or other and you generally find one of the nicest most generous bunch of people you could hope to meet.

Go ANYWHERE in the world and you will find fellow magicians who will take you into their homes. They will feed you and give you a place to stay. They'll take you around and if you aren't wary they will keep you up to all hours of night doing and talking magic. It is really a most extraordinary thing.

We owe a great debt to Steve and those who keep this thing going and an even greater debt to each other for taking the time to post material of real worth and value. Skip quickly over the 'dross' to find the good stuff and you will be well rewarded. I know that I am. Sincerest regards,

Look at it this way - if you put 30,000 people into a forum, any forum, you're going to have disagreement. No disagreement, no real discussion. And therefore, no forum.

However, I'm sure some will disagree with me.

Ron

The dictionary defines a forum as: "A public place or medium for open discussion."

That's what the Café provides for the magic community...and quite successfully I might add!

Andy

I would agree with Andy on the Magic Café being successful. In fact this forum created a good community of magicians helping magicians.

All internet forums are like this. Most magicians are quite nice to each other in person.

Basically it is also about building friendships and friends do support one another. I believe many of us have made quite a few great friends here too.

Bickering on this forum? This is one of the most respectful forums on the internet is what I found. Just notice how helpful the vast majority is.

It is a good place. And I enjoy to hang around in this virtual Café , , ,

The Magic Café, as many would agree, is a community of magicians helping magicians. This is not only the tag line but rather magicians actually helping other magicians AND building strong friendships along the way.

I agree with Andy that this is a very good place to hang around.

For the vast majority, the people here are willing to help out each other. Yes there are some disagreements. There are also a few personal attacks. However, those are in the minority. This is the most helpful group of magicians that I have run across on the web. It is like any magic club even. You will find those that are very willing to help others. Occasionally you will find some jerk that just wants to cause trouble. I have even seen fights between clubs. There are disagreements between magic shops. Many times these differences are based on fear. Something as simple as, there is not enough business to go around. Or, we have to be the larger club. Those arguements do nothing to promote magic. Same thing happens in the forums. You have some individuals that think they are the be-all-end-all of magic. This is a community where we should all be willing to work together.

Well said. Consider that if we all agreed on everything there would be very little to discuss and explore about the craft! All we'd be able to do would be to exchange basic information on matters of fact. But, the depth of magic mitigates against this. Two magicians looking at exactly the same situation will solve whatever problems they see in totally different ways. This in fact is what I think keeps magic fresh for me.

Good heavens, but what a bore magic would be if we all agreed on everything! How stagnant it would become with no one venturing outside the accepted avenues of approach, etc. There would have been no Slydini who knows how many others. It's not disagreement that is the problem it's the manner in which we can disagree. Best regards,

I agree with most of the above. It only takes a few bad apples to ruin an entire bunch. Focus on the positive and ignore the negative. That's the great thing about online. You don't really have to deal with people in real life.

"Good heavens, but what a bore magic would be if we all agreed on everything!"

Thanks for all the comments everyone...just on the above - I don't mean people disagreeing with each other, that is great. It's the personal attacks and the fact that often if someone steps a foot wrong they are lynched. Seems to happen to particular people here though so I guess I just missed the history of why and am just seeing the aftermath.

I've seen way more helpful people here than not, but to be honest it is one of the more 'bitchy' forums I've seen...and I've seen a lot of flames over the years ! This isn't at the level of 'your mom's a ....' type forums, but still more personal it seems in many ways.

However, this is also one of the only forums I've seen where I write about something in a thread and get some great advice through a PM! very nice stuff has been sent through by helpful people...I appreciate that immensely and love the whole 'mentor' kind of attitude towards newbies

THANKS!