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mindpunisher
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The problem is: you see a magic show on tv within 10 mins or so you can find a dealer that will sell you the secret. You go see a hypnotist you can get the workings of a full show within minutes on the internet.

And to say there is nothing to EXPOSE about stage hypnosis really summs up a certain attitude.

Hypnosis has suffered without any doubt even before the internet became so prevelant. At least here in the UK all the schools that sprung up killed the market. I even knew a well known hypnotist who told me he was deliberatly flooding the market due to some dispute he had with another well known performer.

We don't fear anything we do recognize that the art of hypnosis has lost its gloss its edge its mystique. By the small army of people that sprung up teaching others for a few bucks it killed the market here.

Richard: marketing on the net with todays sophisticated technology is hardly the same as selling a few dvds at a show. Even so why would you want to? Would a mentalist sell dvds explaining his effects after each show?

I fail to see your logic. Ok lets show everyone that hypnosis is nothing special and everyone can do it. Lets have a hypnotist on every street corner in every bar until the public scream no more. basically that's what happened here.

But then perhaps that's just human nature and what we call "progress".

And we all know nothing can stop progress. I guess I'm already an archaic remnant from a distant past. And should now shut up because its a waste of time.
Dannydoyle
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Not a wast of time per se. But with no solution it becomes a complaint session, and THAT is a waste of time.

So lets try solutions. That seems a better way to go about it right?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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There is no solution. The technology is here people will mass market secrets and "progress" won't be stopped. Not everyone shares the same values. Or sees it as a problem.

If Richard doesn't do it dozens will anyway. So its not a personal dig at him.

So I guess its just a complaint that's going nowhere.
Nongard1
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MP you write "we do recognize that the art of hypnosis has lost its gloss its edge its mystique."

Only when people are bad performers. The creative and good performers will always rise to the top.

I want 100 times the number of people doing hypnois. Then we can get away from the "my fart stinks" routines or the "end my show with YMCA skit" and end up with treuly creative people.

Go watch 20 stage performers in the USA. Even in Vegas, you will see the same show in various forms. The field needs exposure, so creative peole will rise to the top.
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
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mindpunisher
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Market forces determine what lives and what dies. Performers are suppliers of an entertainment medium.

My best shows were the last few runs in my local theatre. The shows were at their very best and sometimes after the shows the audience sat there for a few minutes because they didn't want to leave but the crowds were dwindleing.

Perhaps you are fortunate your market is still intact. Come over here and you will die also. A few of the top names took over my spot after I left they died on their asses. Not because they were bad because the appitite for hypnosis had been satisfied. Over exposure on TV by Paul Mckenna started an explosion in the market. Every failed commedian or karaoke operator wanted to be a hypnotist all of a sudden. Schools sprouted up to supply them with the know how.

Couple of years later it was no longer special plus the newbies also caused a lot of bad ill feeling with the public.

Solutions assume that there is some control over the situation. When of course there is absolutely none.

The solution would be to keep secrets but of course the horse has bolted.

As for Vegas perhaps it doesn't harm that market. Perhaps as Richard says it even enhances it. However that doesn't mean it has the same effect every where else.
Dannydoyle
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Hypnosis markets have gone up and down since the beginning. People have flocked to it in the past and flooded and everexposed markets and guess what? People survive.

I have NEVER had any outside forces shut me down and never will. Maybe the solution is in how and where you market yourself.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Well we are in different countries for a start. And you are also in a place where there is constant movement of people. And you seem to have built ourself into a good venue.

I guess a choice would be to go over to Spain or some other Holiday destination.

Except the venues are not much good plus the pay is abismal. And the lifestyle pretty awful. Although I also hear there is a bit of a decline over in parts of Spain to these days. Few friends recently back from a few places tell me there wasn't a hypnotist in sight.

But stuffy little bars for £100 a show aren't my idea of living.
Dannydoyle
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Actually the Canary Islands offer LOTS of work.

See my point is if I can find a place, and others can so can you.

Or you can simply complain and bemaon your fate and accept it. There ARE venues and a LOT of them which offer many many opportunities for people who simply wish to find them. It is admitadly far easier to complain and do nothing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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For £100 or less a show with no space to move. I was offered £30 a show in Benidorm!!!

Canaries don't offer a lot of work. They offer a little work in bad conditions for peanuts.

I've been to the Canaries Costa Del Sol and Benidorm. I have worked briefly in all of these places.

I bet you wouldn't hang around there long.

£4000 a show down to £30? Yes sign me up. Why don't I do a show for tenner? Or how about a p int of beer.


In many cases its not possible to do a show and the bar owner doesn;'t care he just wants your poster up so he can get a few lager louts in. that's not work.

And part from that its because of all these sell outs that has created this condition...thats what I am complaining about.
Nongard1
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In show business WHY would you work for anyone else? The way to make MONEY in life is not to work as a hired hand but to be an industrious self-promoter. If you want to make 4000 a show, rent a room, hire a printer, buy radio ads, create the best show ever, and make your money. You expect somebody else to foot the risk and you keep the 4K? If you want someone else to pay you 4K, then you must make yourself WORTH that much to them - an entertaining show isn't worth 4K unless you are going to bring them 12K in additoinal revenue... You have much to learn about business.
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
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mindpunisher
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Richard: Im not sure what your above post is about?

I used to make 4k in the early 90s that's equivilent to about 10k by todays prices pounds sterling. I did that for three and a half years solid. I took all the risks. I have always took the risks at everything I do even now.

I also did universities hotels and clubs the lenght and breadth of the country.

My point was to Danny who claims there is work in the Canaries. I was offered £30 a show in Benidorm rising to £100 in peak season. There is no reasonable work in the canaries. I did a few shows briefly and came home.

As for taking risks at this moment in time it wouldn't work there is no demand.There has to be some demand. Hypnosis was always cyclic its getting to ride the wave before it hits the beach. Except this time there are no waves.

I am taking risks in my own training company that teaches business people to use hypnosis in their business presentations.
Dannydoyle
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I guess your forte is the complain. Not bad at it either.

Work in the Canaries? Oh try the all inclusive resorts. Try to 4 wall it. There is LOTS of work it is just that nobody is going to hand it to you.

If you were making that money, then why did you stop? The thing is that at that level over exposure is not a problem. I don't see why all you want to do is complain when LOTS of guys are out here making really good money doing exactly what you seem to think they can't.

If you want to complain, nobody can stop you. If you have a show that does what you say it can and it worked on that level, then simply 4 wall it and BAM your at it again. Not rocket science really.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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I took time out and visted tenneriffe, PortoRico, Playa des Englise, Cost Del Sol - Malaga - Benalmadina, And Was offered a season in Benidorm by an agent at £100 a show five nights a week. Two shows a night but the agent wanted 15% of every show. I turned that down because I was still making good money better money at home. later when I went over to Benidorm they were offering £30 off peak season.

Scruffy little bar couldn't swing a cat.

That was a while ago. I wasn't aware of any resorts that were offering anything different. Plus at that time even in those conditions it was difficult to find a spot because most were taken.

My show did what it did because it suited the student population and it was positioned right. It was in the flow of movement of people. I only needed 200 seats sold to break even and everything else was mine. That was after everything was paid for including advertising etc. Plus it was at the start of a wave. It had more to do with just the show. Strategic venue and timing and non stop marketing.

Positioning is really important especially if you don'thave a lot of money to start with. I was totally broke borrowed 1k and ploughed it in. But I knew I was about to ride a wave that hadn't yet reached my home town. Plus I had trained with a mentor did a few shows in some clubs a dozen at most and jumped right in. But I knew it would work...I was also lucky because just after I secured the venue there were a couple of big names at the time after it. So timing was fortunate too.

4 WALL it? Does that mean hiring the venue?
RSD
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Quote:
On 2007-09-07 17:51, mindpunisher wrote:
4 WALL it? Does that mean hiring the venue?


That means you rent the venue. The space is yours to do with it as agreed. You charge an admission and you keep the door. The venue is at no risk whatsoever.

60% of my business is done this way. I make the most money this way. However, its takes a lot of time, and a lot of work. Its not easy, but its a nice payoff. However, there is something to be said about the security of knowing you don't have to do any legwork for marketing and just walk into a clients space, do your show, get a check and go home. Each option does have its pro and cons. The problem is not very many entertainers are good businessmen.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2007-09-07 17:51, mindpunisher wrote:
I took time out and visted tenneriffe, PortoRico, Playa des Englise, Cost Del Sol - Malaga - Benalmadina, And Was offered a season in Benidorm by an agent at £100 a show five nights a week. Two shows a night but the agent wanted 15% of every show. I turned that down because I was still making good money better money at home. later when I went over to Benidorm they were offering £30 off peak season.

Scruffy little bar couldn't swing a cat.

That was a while ago. I wasn't aware of any resorts that were offering anything different. Plus at that time even in those conditions it was difficult to find a spot because most were taken.

My show did what it did because it suited the student population and it was positioned right. It was in the flow of movement of people. I only needed 200 seats sold to break even and everything else was mine. That was after everything was paid for including advertising etc. Plus it was at the start of a wave. It had more to do with just the show. Strategic venue and timing and non stop marketing.

Positioning is really important especially if you don'thave a lot of money to start with. I was totally broke borrowed 1k and ploughed it in. But I knew I was about to ride a wave that hadn't yet reached my home town. Plus I had trained with a mentor did a few shows in some clubs a dozen at most and jumped right in. But I knew it would work...I was also lucky because just after I secured the venue there were a couple of big names at the time after it. So timing was fortunate too.

4 WALL it? Does that mean hiring the venue?


Now we get to it if you ask me. You seem to be one of the ones who had a benifit from the popularity, and not actually responsible for it. You simply admit riding a wave others had created.

Oddly enough you seem to be angry with others for doing the same thing. The problem with this idea is that when the wave ends so does yoru ride. If you had gone about it differently maybe you would not be in that position.

I don't suffer from these things, neither does Richard. We make our own waves. That way no matter what anyone else is doing we are ok.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Nongard1
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Last time I got a paycheck was 1994. I live a VERY good lifestlye 4-walling and creating my own waves. I wouldn't work any other way. I turn down comedy clubs, will never do a corporate give ever, and wouln't even answer my phone for 100 pounds. (well with the latest currency exchange rates, maybe! Pretty soon 100 pounds will be about a million dollars! But then now its a political discussion)


Richard
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
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mindpunisher
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I think you guys really don't understand the difference between our two markets. The TOP of the TOP guys over here are no longer operating.

Over here its a different world a different culture and size of market. There has to be a market for any product. Hypnosis is just a product. There IS NO Considerable MARKET HERE FOR HYPNOSIS SHOWS OF ANY DESCRIPTION.

Both of you come over here and discover this for yourself. YOU DON'T MAKE YOUR OWN WAVES. You ride the waves that are there in any market. You talk about the canaries for example and 4 walling it. When I was there ...there were NO VENUES TO HIRE. plus the Brits that go there EXPECT ALL THERE ENTERTAINMENT FOR FREE.

Then they could walk up any street and see a dozen hypnotists FOR FREE in the cabaret bars. there were no theatre type rooms for hire it was all cabaret bars. the latest I have heard from a friend just back from Tenneriefe is that no hypnotists were there a few weeks back. Again this is an indication that the demand isn't there.

You don't make your own waves you ride waves like a skilled surfer. To ride a wave for three and a half years at 4k a show is a pretty skilled surf if you ask me. Very few people could do it.

Danny I pmd you a while back. I was thinking of taking a look at vegas. You told me in your words that it is almost impossible to start out in Vegas due to the over charging of rooms and high advertising costs. Plus the sheer number of hypnosis acts already established. you said the same about the venues you operate from.

in your own words you said you would hate to be starting out because all of the positions were gone. You said you thought that even you would have great difficulty in starting out and wouldn't know how you could break through,.

You guys are fortunate to be in an environment where there is still enough demand to sustain hypnosis shows.

If you don't believe me. Come over to the UK and by all means travel Europe and you will see what I mean.

You don't create the waves you take advantage of the fact that the public are interested in hypnosis.

I'ld give you a month over here and you would be crying to go home.

Whether you realise it or not you are positioning yourself in an already interested market. A flow of traffic willing to buy.

When that traffic is no longer willing to buy it doesn't matter what you do you will stop dead.

As for canaries or spain. Its a dreary existence doing poor quality shows due to bad conditiopns for peanuts surrouned by lager louts. I don't think either of you would last a month. you are both spoiled by your market. And good luck to you/
mindpunisher
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When I finally stopped my run two of the biggest hypnotists in the UK jumped in and both flopped! One has a tv networked show all over the world apparently. Shows were cancelled.

According to the management my show was the most successful in the whole history of that venue with hypnotists.

Danny said "you were the one of those that benefited from the popularity".

Of course AND SO ARE YOU! what kind of a statement is that? You mean if it was unpopular you would still be doing good?

I also benefited from timing and doing my homework. My run lasted due to the fact that at the time I was offering something different and fresh and never seen before in that format. I had done my figures. The management were worried it took me about 6 weeks to convince them to give me a go. We turned away 200+ at the doors on the first night because the 1000 seats were full.

I agree with Richard 4 walling it as you guys call it is the only way to go. that's what I did. Which is great if you are in an environment that allows it. And it was....
Dannydoyle
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So you don't have a passport? I spend 1/2 my year not in my country, I also would NOT TAKE A CORPORATE GIG.

Like I said it is easy to complain. IF your market dried up, nobody is telling you it didn't, then move.

Yep to 4 wall it in Vegas takes money. And pretty good money at that. IF you insist at starting at the top. BUT if you take your time and "Do your homework".

It is far easier to complain I will admit. BUT I have to say it is a lot less fun.

My point really is this. IF you can't keep going and make your own wave, it would seem to me that you are simply one of the thousands of guys who can't do this. There is NO way to tell me there is not a market for the type of thing in the UK. Derren Brown is proof that at least the concept works. Not the same but close enough.

But I have always said 2 things and your proving both of them really. Please don't take them wrong. One is that when times do constrict and get tough, the better acts always manage to not only survive but thrive. Demand may go down but supply goes so far down that you can actually charge more.

Secondly that when it comes to the crunch time, well it is almost always the guy better at the "business" end of things who will end up making a living. It is 2 words, show, business, and the second one is what keeps us eating. A good business man can take a mediocre show and make a heck of a living with it. A good showman who is bad at business has trouble eating.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Nongard1
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Look for the upcomming Danny Doyle and Richard Nongard video on how to make money worldwide as a hypnotist, by never limiting yourself and creating your dreams! Produced by two guys actually earning a decent living as professional hypnotists.... MP, we will even give you free international postage.... LOL

Danny?
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis
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