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Scott F. Guinn
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Quote:
On 2007-09-06 01:11, Eric Evans wrote:

you all seem to know each other though, kinda ironic.




I take issue with that and everything it implies, sir. I have never met anyone who posted in this topic. Other than the fact that they participate on The Café and that one is an officer of one of the large organizations, I know nothing else about any of them, including you and Jimmy.

A healthy debate is one thing. Thinly veiled accusations that anyone who happens to disagree with your opinion must be in collusion and part of the problem is something else entirely. I don't even belong to any of the societies, nor do I belong to any clubs, unless you count The Café and other sites like it as "clubs." I would recommend caution when making statements with words like "you all."
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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Eric Evans
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Oooh, must've struck a nerve there.

Actually Scott, I'd encountered your name here many times before and have even read your posts from time to time. When I'd read the thread originally your post wasn't here and it all seemed...how can I say...incestuous, yes, that's the word I was looking for. When I posted and saw you just above my post I bit my lip a bit. But...

I agree, no need for thinly veiled accusations. You throw cards? How about 10 cards each at ten paces? If not and you still feel huffy about it all then I'll be happy to accomodate whatever form of grudge match you like.

Idaho? I ain't going to Idaho, but I'll meet you in say....hmmm...open for suggestions here.

I was glad to read your post (again, only after I posted) for I thought you were a moderating influence on the topic at hand. But if you insist on taking umbrage (sp?) at my comment then fine, as I said, I can accomodate.
Scott F. Guinn
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Struck a nerve? Yes, but not in the way you seem to be implying. As I said, I don't belong to any of the major societies anymore. So any complaints about them don't faze me in the least. It is with the accusations of collusion that I take issue.

Let's look at the facts regarding this particular topic...

The posters with whom you disagree hail from: Maine, Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina (yes, these actually ARE two separate states), Las Vegas, and Malaysia. The posters (actually poster) that you support? You admit that you know him personally. Yet it is the "other side" with the "incestuous" relationship? I hardly think so.

I am in the middle on this one. So no need to throw cards or anything else. Gentleman ought to be able to discuss their differences articulately and precisely, without letting their emotions get the best of them. Besides, I am old, overweight, and I have bad joints. I'm afraid I wouldn't be much of a challenge these days in a physical battle anyway.

All I'm saying is words like "you all" and "incestuous" are pretty strong and completely off-target if one simply looks at the facts. Perhaps something along the lines of, "I disagree with these people, and here's why" or "I support Jimmy's position for these reasons..." would be more persuasive and less offensive.

Back on topic: Is there a "good old boys" faction in any of the major societies? Probably, at least to a degree. Is there anything that can be done about it? As I recall, elections are open in most of the societies. And, as I said before, one always has the option of simply not joining / renewing.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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Michael Taggert
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{First off Payne Ive got the next batch of popcorn in the popper.(here Have a sparkler)}

I am Currently the president of an active, creative ring here in our nation's capitol. I got there from hard work helping the ring to grow and be prosperous. WE as a ring have long history of Hard work promoting magic in the nations capitol. We also have a great relationship with the S.A.M. assemblies in our area. many of our members belong to several of the Societies in and around the nations capitol. I personally travel over 50 miles to make it to our monthly meetings. I am a working Pro in the area. I perform for audiences every week and have developed a magic business that provides my family with a nice income. Our ring does provide a venue for members to perform and hear top working pros lecture and teach. we also provide a Convention each year that Features a public show that last year raised several thousand dollars for the Our school partner. Our ring has a mixed selection of folks from beginning novices to a Past international president, a Fism Winner, top international Illusionists, Inventors of magic, teachers and did I mention My "real Job" is a as a Plumber.
I certainly don't have LOTs of Money to throw around. Yes I have had to go into pocket to get to conventions. I spend hours on the internet each month trying to get lecturers to come to our club and teach.
Your club cannot provide you with EVERTHING you need. Magic is about the journey. it is not an art form that can be mastered overnight. That there is rumblings from the streets is a sign of those young people's need to invest in themselves. The internet cannot teach you magic. The Old guys worked hard to get what they have gotten. (I guess at age 46 Im an old guy)
If you attend a national convention you will see that there is a mix of young and Old that are sharing. Mind you there will always be differences of opinions. The lone practicioners are those that find the road very hard indeed.
As far as Eric's Comment that the Future of Magic will be in the streets and Not some Clubhouse is misguided. first of all the streets is not the only place to find magic. club houses are a place for us to meet and to set aside our professional differences and learn from each other, it is a place to meet friends of like mind and skill. Club houses are not the end all be all of magic. Magic is a performance and thatrical art.It Must be performed in front of a lay audience to be appreciated fully and kept alive by the masters. If your club is not doing that for you then you need figure out where you want to be in your club, what you whant out of your club or whether you whant out of your club.

"cellini provided us with a alternative in his following and followers.

"like Slydini [his teacher] and the old masters, he provided;

venue, costume, show structure, practical working material, practical props and tools, lectures by qualified pros, and much more over the exstent of his life."

I work the street too Dude you are lost if you think that Cellini is the end all be all of Magic. you need to get out more. Cellini is a street worker. he is excellent at what he does but magic covers a much Broader Gambit than just the street. While the street if a great place to work there are other places to ply the art form.
The Only costume piece that I saw Cellini "providing" was One of the Leather Bags he Had for sale to help make His lively hood

Last of all I want to Thank Merlina for Posting. Mrs. Ibenez is Fantastic performer. She shows that our organizations are not just based on the "Old Guys" She is doing a wonderful job as President of the S.A.M.

As for those who feel they need to be offensive just so the can be offensive to people they don't realy know. just stop.

(I appologozed for the Typos and Mispellings but Ihave'nt been able to get spell check to work on this site) (payne do you want butter on the popcorn. Harris has the beer and pretzels)
Believe you then that I do strange things
jimmy talksalot
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Mr. Michael,

I'm forty, and I can see how that old guy comment can be confused.

and although I'm sure Mrs. Ibenez is doing a bang up job, due to the huge praise she has recieved here,we should agree that assuming that a person is immune from short commings merely because they are a lady, is saddly in error.

you see that's my point.

there has been so much defence for the sake of defence that it seems as tho everything must be perfect, because everyone is so quick to deny that their cage has been rattled.

and I'll grant you, a hobbiest could very well be happy with the societies because he doesn't take it seriously enough to go full time and suffer the reality of being a magician.he doesn't know any better.

I'm going to have to toot my own horn because I don't want you to think I'm that wet behind my ears.

you see I've been doing magic my whole life I am well aware of the work and research and the journey. every day I devour info or work, I'm a fanatic in my lifes work.

you see I am not one of the hobbiests who flock to the societies and blindly idolize and defend to get a pat on the head.

I know the street is not the only game.

I've supported my family working theaters, resteraunts, stadiums,corprate,backyards,bars,cabarets,circuses and any other magic work I could find here or around the world.

look me up it's there.

I have provided for my students and beginners from the societies out of pocket because I made it my business to do so and I hold no office nor have I sought office.

I'm well aware of all the other masters I just brought up how badly we treated one of them!

which by the way nobody has said a word about that!

and I will say it again until some one is willing to answer this;

IT'S NOT ME MR.MICHAEL, I'M ON YOUR TEAM!

it's the huge body of magician's that's growing in our community that the societies are throwing a blind eye at....and many of these that are getting ignored are working pros.

how are they being ignored? well on this thread they're being told everything is alright and they don't have enough experience to know whats good for them.
they're being told that we don't really understand how the old masters had it even though some of them were our family and some are still talking to us even though they are elderly.

further they're being told that it's isolated to one or two clubs when we all know that's not true.

I wrote the original post in defence of myself on the other Café to many other magician's because I had been accused of being a blind follower of the societies...really.

I unwittingly posted it here thinking that the societies would want to correct these erors instead of defending their own lot.

and yes after all these years I think I do agree with mr.evans that the future of magic will be on the street.

wether anybody wants to admit it or not we have made mistakes here.
Brent McLeod
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Jimmy-

Best advice!! from a Professional worker

don't go to any club meets

Start up your own club with whom you want to discuss & learn similar magic-relative interests & your attitude to other members similar to yours, then you can moan all night

Amateur unpaid people who run many rings worldwide try there best-it always upsets some members no matter what-thats Life

don't go to any IBM or SAM conventions

Chill out!!-You asked for advice-But don't like people who disagree with your problem in Texas area

that's a shame -Stay away from these guys you have problems with,.

I hope you find a group of people who would enjoy your company to talk Magic & topics surrounding-could be difficult

Actually enjoyed your posts-some good points -but that's the Café-sharing

Do I care if you disagree with my comments-Not a bit as this is the end of the topic for me!!!!
E. S. Andrews
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I don't know what you are asking out of the Societies, but I am getting exactly what I want out of I.B.M., which is a way to connect with people who have the same interests that I do and who can give me practical advice on performances and effects. Our dues yearly are small, and although there are people who are caught up in the politics of the thing, there are many other people who are there to learn from each other and offer hard won pieces of advice. Without Ring 29 I wouldn't have had a chance to learn from from professional performers on nearly a weekly basis. And we are blessed to have a magic store where everyone from the neophyte magician to the big name pro feels welcome to come in and spend a Saturday killing time.
I'm not sure exactly what is going on around your area, so I'm not fit to judge your response to it, but there are still some Rings out there giving their members a wide pool of knowledge to work with and learn from. I do wish more people could have an experience like mine, and I hope you find something similar.
mrunge
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Well said, E.S. And...welcome to the Café!

Mark. Smile
jimmy talksalot
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Mr.andrews and mr.mrunge,

did you notice the post right above you by Brent McLeod or have you gone to the sidewalk shuffle where I posted the same thread and read any of the other comments by the other proffessional magicians?

have gone to the other Café and seen the huge body of magi with the same feelings?

if you arn't willing to see that there are problems and want to fix it obviously your are part of the problem.

and you have made this obvious to any one reading this.

did you ever think that if these pros were to come back that you may get more benifits from a large body of pros?

you see your hypersensitive defence is just driving more quality away from you.

I understand your self interest, but can't you see what could be more benificial?

mrunge, do you work professionally? I can't seem to find any promo of you.

are you a magician?

your very defencive and opinionated are you credible?

should I be apologizing or are you a hobbyist?

do you care about our art? do you want to make it better or do you want it to stay just the way it is?
E. S. Andrews
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Quote:
On 2007-09-14 12:40, mrunge wrote:
Well said, E.S. And...welcome to the Café!

Mark. Smile


Thanks, mrunge.

And Talksalot,

I never said there weren't problems with the rings, I was just trying to point out that some of them get it right, just like others get it wrong. As for I.B.M. and other societies as a whole, I am not fit to judge them as my only experience has been with the ring I am a member of.

By all means, take Mr. McLeod's advice and leave the rings and start up something with the people who are like you. Give them what you feel they need and work towards your better future of magic. It could be a great thing. Just don't think that every member of the societies has been mistreated or is being wronged. And even though I'm not provided with any performance venues or free equipment, I am given the knowledge of those people who came before me and started their magic careers from the bottom up, with no monetary assistance from anyone. They give me the knowledge I need to go out and get restaurant gigs, or how to promote myself in order to net corporate work, or how to approach stage work.

Anyway, I once again wish you luck in changing the Societies into what you feel they should be, or in getting a fresh start with all the other people who are fed up with them, but everything in my neck of the woods is fine.
mrunge
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Once again, E.S., I agree. I am NOT a professional performer. I have "another job." Too bad that seems to be a problem you for Jimmy. I make no apologies for that. It is MY decision and if I were unhappy with it, I know I can make a change.

One doesn't have to be a professional to enjoy something or understand everything that takes place with it. Ever heard of "pick up" basketball? There are a LOT of players who enjoy the game and understand EVERYTHING about it, they just don't play in the NBA or do it for a living. What's the big deal with that? Same with magic.

I have been involved in magic for 25+ years. It is a hobby for me and I enjoy collecting, reading, learning and studying the "art of magic." It is a fascinating journey. Again, I am not a professional performer and have never wanted to be. I enjoy performing for those in my circle and the support that is freely given to me by others, both locally and nationally.

I work very hard with others, amateur and professional alike, in my area to make magic as enjoyable for all as possible. I have helped start a magic club, created an IBM ring and started a new annual convention. We will be holding our 2nd Annual May Magic Madness convention next year. Read the July issue (p. 47/48) of the Linking Ring for more about our group and convention. Not bad for an amateur.

If you are as unhappy with the current state of magic as you appear to be, why not work on changing it and become part of the solution instead of just complaining about it and being stuck in the problem?

Why not state, in plain English, what your problems are. From what I can tell, you seem to be upset that there is no retirement plan, insurance, etc...provided for those professional magicians who are now retired and have spent their days entertaining others. There are other issues and complaints you have as well. Some valid, some the results of choices made in life. There is, after all, no guarantee of anything in life and it is what you make of it.

Jimmy, I don't plan to continue to debate you and you are welcome to disagree with anything I say. That is totally fine and does NOT bother me at all.

I wish you the absolute best in life and hope you are totally happy with your choices in life and where you find yourself in your personal journey. I hope you can find a group of people to spend time with that works for you and is everything you hope it to be. I look forward to seeing your name in lights and hearing that you are a total success. You might already be, in which case that is fantastic. Congratulations! If not, yet, well good luck and all the best to you.

Your friend. Mark. Smile
Josh Riel
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Quote:
On 2007-09-20 13:01, mrunge wrote:

If you are as unhappy with the current state of magic as you appear to be, why not work on changing it and become part of the solution instead of just complaining about it and being stuck in the problem?


Your friend. Mark. Smile


This is exactly what he is trying to do. You might think he's too course in the way he said it, but shortly after his original post a nice lady supported her argument by insulting his spelling. Then we get mad at Jimmy and Eric for being insulting.

I don't understand why it's so hard to understand what Jimmy's saying, he said it in the first post. He even said that his desire was for the magicians to work at bettering the groups.

Of course not that anyone will re-read his post and try to see it from the standpoint of someone genuinely trying to help. You might not like the way someone speaks, but that doesn't make the speech irrelevant.

Anyway, hes a street performer, they are all pretty harsh sometimes. But most of us could learn a lot from Jimmy. I know I do, at the other Café, he writes gold. Fortunately over there we don't have a bunch of guys who are terrified of getting somebody upset by saying anything remotely negative toward the establishment.

Regardless of your opinions on this matter, Jimmy has more experience and more interest in magic, magicians, and our future than most in this whole forum.


Also, there might be 10 out of the 30,000+ people on this forum that would have the guts to actually go on the IBM forum and tell it like he sees it.

And I don't mean like a lot of people who will only say something they feel after several people have already said it, so they don't have to stand out.

Watch every thread. You have people gushing about a product, pages of it. Then one guy has the guts to say "Hey, it aint that great", then all the sudden dozens of guys suddenly get courageous enough to repeat him.....
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
Bill Thompson
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Quote:
are you a magician?

your very defencive and opinionated are you credible?

should I be apologizing or are you a hobbyist?

My original reply here got zapped by the great outage... lets go again...

What is it about hobbyists that you hate, Jimmy? We have a great love of magic. We like to perform for others. We happen to have another career is all... Dai Vernon was a silhouette cutter. Jim Surprise who Jon Racherbaumer referred to as "old guard" is an attorney. So in your opinion neither of these two should be listened to, given any respect or called magicians simply because they weren't full time professionals? Think about that.

I could be wrong, but I imagine that since I am an amateur hobbyist you will dismiss me.
"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment.
Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." - Chuang Tse
jimmy talksalot
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Mr. bill,

On the contrary I do not dismiss you or any other hobbiest. Thank you for taking the time to repost. I do not hate hobbiest. I just don't think they should be in charge and out ridiculing pros as tho they were pros themselves and by the way Vernon's hobby was silhouette cutting not the other way around and if I'm not mistaken the magic castle was his lively hood. and he had been known to do many gigs to support himself and his family all be it arguable.

My issue as I have stated over and over is that; the pro's should be in charge, because they know the ins and outs of being a full time magician better then a hobbiest.

HOBBIESTS SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HOW TO BE A PRO!

The other problem of course is that many of the hobbiests aren't schooled enough in our tradition to even realize that there are problems in our magic societies and this thread is ample evidence of this. The attitude here, is that instead of bringing the societies back to pro and the glory days [if you will]. It has been suggested that we should leave them as what they have digressed to, amatuer gatherings. This is sad. What hope for the amature or potential.

Jon Racherbaumer is a friend of mine and he holds court on Monday nights.[nites of slieghts] He is a pro, therefore he does NOT hold meetings on WEEK ENDS, hence he gets an alarming amount of pros to show up and do show case. He holds meetings in New Orleans at "Benagan's" on the west bank. Further I believe Jon or someone of his caliber, should be president of one of the locals instead of what has happened in the past. eg. There was a rich guy who had studied magic for 1 year and bought a huge amount of magic and ran for president and won. hmm. And by the by I have been known to organize some rings myself, if you look it up. If you hold the view that I just sit back and complain, please look into my background. oh yeh and mister bill, I see that you are out there in Mississippi, I would urge you to go to one of Jon's meetings in New Orleans and see if I'm telling any truth here I love his meetings you always come out of there feeling like a million bucks tell him I said "hey" and look for Joe Harrison that guy is amazing and a full time pro who every body learns a lot from and while your there, talk to Eddie Adams or Earle Christenberry they're up in age and they remember how things used to be or you can just buy one of Mr. Earle's books on it.

good luck to you and thanks again for posting.
Payne
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So you’re complaint is that Non Pro’s are running the clubs?
You said

Quote:
“eg. there was a rich guy who had studied magic for 1 yr. and bought a huge amount of magic and ran for pres. and won.”


So did he rig the election? Was there a better qualified “Professional Magician” who was running against him? Did this guy do a bad job administrating the day to day operation of the club? Would the “Working Pro” have done it any better?

How long have you been I magic? Have you noticed that working pro’s don’t tend to go to meetings as they are generally working? We have a few fulltime and part time pro’s in our club but they are definitely in the minority and they certainly aren’t at every meeting. I myself haven’t been to a club meeting for the last three months because of gig conflicts. Given a choice between attending a meeting and earning some green which do you think a working magus is going to choose?

Really it sounds like you’re trying to pound a square peg into a round hole here. The magic societies were created for both the novice and the enthusiast. Even at the height of the golden age of magic there weren’t enough “Professionals” to completely and competently populate a group like the IBM or SAM. They’ve always relied upon the Hobbyists to fill out their ranks. Sure the ratio of professional to hobbyist has changed over the years and the overall membership numbers of the various clubs have plummeted since the heyday of the fraternal organization back in the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s. But you’re wanting the clubs to become something that they never truly were.

You want a club geared for and run by real world workers? Then start your own. Trying to mold the existing IBM or SAM into the “Professional” based organizations you wish them to be simply isn’t gong to happen. Who’s going to run the day to day operations of the group? Running a club is a whole lot different than just holding a sessioning session at a local pub on a weekly basis. There are dues to collect, newsletters to publish, events to plan and hold. Most “Pro’s” haven’t got the time to be involved in this sort of thing and so they let those dreaded amateurs run things.

Sure, sometimes this leads to problems, especially if you elect as an officer some wannabe who struts around pretending to be something he ain’t. But that’s why you have term limits. So you can vote the bums out.
Really I can’t see that you have any valid argument here. You don’t like the club you’ve got? Work to change it or start a new one. Certainly the national SAM or IBM isn’t going to get involved on a local level. They’re busy doing whatever it is that they do.

I think it would be a safe wager to say that over 75% of the membership of both the IBM and the SAM have never performed for more than family or friends, let alone for money. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but where would these people go in your “Clubs geared to the Professional” world? Would they just sit in the back and be quiet and kowtow to your greater knowledge and wisdom?
Magic enthusiasts and hobbyists are what keep the magic world going. They attend shows and lectures and buy books and tricks. Many full time “Pro’s” make a good living selling to hobbyists.

We all have our place in the world of magic and the magic club is where we all can reside.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
jimmy talksalot
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You said,

"Magic enthusiasts and hobbyists are what keep the magic world going. They attend shows and lectures and buy books and tricks. Many full time “Pro’s” make a good living selling to hobbyists"

this mind set is what got the guy elected president. This is what changed the clubs and this is what made the ROUND HOLE. Yes he did a bad job and the biggest excuse he had was that he didn't have enough time because of his real job. You see just because your not doing magic for a living your still doing some thing for a living to take up your time. And here's a suggestion how about meetings on week days instead of week ends? In the old days you needed to go to most magic shops with another magi or prove you were one. You see magic didn't go out with Vaudeville something happened inside of the art here in the states. Someone believed that it was just a hobby and you couldn't treat it like a real business and others, worse yet never held it sacred.
They did, in the old days, and there are still those who believe this and they're making a fine living today. These are things that the societies are supposed to be teaching. There's a lady president who posted here and if you look at the posts you'll see the praises from her followers, and she has stated here that she is a full time pro. She must have figured out how to force that square peg!
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-09-20 22:25, jimmy talksalot wrote:
You said,

"Magic enthusiasts and hobbyists are what keep the magic world going. They attend shows and lectures and buy books and tricks. Many full time “Pro’s” make a good living selling to hobbyists"

this mind set is what got the guy elected pres.

So who ran against this guy?
Was it a full time pro?
What makes you think a full time pro would be any better at running a club than a non professional magician?
Quote:
this is what changed the clubs and this is what made the ROUND HOLE.

yes he did a bad job and the biggest excuse he had was that he didn't have enough time because of his real job.

you see just because your not doing magic for a living your still doing some thing for a living to take up your time.

The few full time pro's I know are far too busy to run a club. They're usually on the road or out doing gig's. Their schedules are apt to change at the last minute so they can't dependably make it to meetings, lectures or events. At least your average working Joe who has a 9 to 5 hasn't got this problem.
Quote:
and here's a suggestion how about meetings on week days instead of week ends?

Great suggestion. Why don't you bring it up at your next meeting and take a vote on it? Our club meets on a Thursday because many of us are out working on the weekends.
Quote:
in the old days you needed to go to most magic shops with another magi or prove you were one.

Not in your lifetime, not in my lifetime nor in anyones lifetime that's alive today.
Physicians also used to believe that illness was caused by bad air or evil spirits. Life moves on and just because it used to happen one way doesn't mean that this was necessarily the best way or the way it has to occur today.
Quote:
you see magic didn't go out with vaudville something happened inside of the art here in the states.

someone believed that it was just a hobby and you couldn't treat it like a real business.

No reason it can't be both. There are amateur theatrical troupes all over the country. I don't see serious theatre being harmed by the practise. Garage bands abound but professional concerts still are being sold out.
Quote:
and others, worse yet never held it sacred.

Is it sacred?
Quote:
they did,

They? Who's they? Most of the old time golden age magicians you seem to hold in such high esteem didn't hold it sacred. It was strictly business and they'd have sold their own mothers for a buck. The only reason they tried to keep it an exclusive club was to limit the competition.
Quote:
in the old days, and there are still those who believe this and they're making a fine living today.

And more power to them. This however seems to have little to do with how a magic society is run.
Quote:
these are things that the societies are supposed to be teaching.

Says who? I thought the societies were social clubs where those who had an interest in magic could meet with like minded folk. Not everyone who goes to a club meeting wants to be a full time worker. Some are just enthusiasts who like to show off a trick in front of their Friends or just sit back and watch others perform. Others are collectors others interested in the history of magic. A healthy club tries to cater to the interests of all its members, just not that upper echelon of the full time worker.
Quote:
there's a lady pres. who posted here and if you look at the posts you'll see the praises from her followers, and she has stated here that she is a full time pro.

she must have figured out how to force that square peg!

It can be done but that doesn't mean it has to be done the same way for every club.
You don't like the way your club is being run? Get in and change it. You don't like the way the national organization works? Get involved and change it.
I really don't see you offering any positive suggestions as to how you'd get things to change. Only that you think that they should. Give us a business plan on how you'd alter the organizations structure and the benefits of doing so and perhaps someone would take you a bit more seriously.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
jimmy talksalot
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you know I was gonna respond to mr.payne's post.

but after rereading it a couple of times I can see that it would be futile to think that anything positive could happen without a long super exstencive banter back and forth.

besides I think Josh Riel had had answered all this in his post just a few up.

thanks josh, but I think I'm beating a dead horse again. I've had a barrage of mail telling me that I am, but I'm stubborn I guess.

mr. payne if you would like you can read over all my posts on this thread I have answered all your arguments there to my satisfaction, if not yours.

and I loved your site, I like how you can can click on the different characters you have. I hope the best for you in your business.
E. S. Andrews
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So, in the fewest sentences possible, what are a few things that you think would help prevent people from leaving the Societies. Lets say, the top five.

p.s. I am currently trying to become a member at the other forum so I can veiw the posts there on the subject. I screwed up the whole e-mail first thing, so it may be a while.
jimmy talksalot
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Mr. Andrews,

Thanks for the interest in my view I have written the below for you and any one else who may have missed the original post. Well if you reread the first post I wrote that started all this hooplah, you will see a huge body of things that we could do.

I'm not being sarcastic and I'm not trying to get out of the question because I have no suggestions on the contrary I have a lot I just didn't want to have to repeat all of it. You see, I think I bit off more then I can chew with this thread. I wasn't aware that I would have to explain this step by step to so many over and over again I'm getting a little frustrated. I'm sorry.

I HAVE GIVIN MANY SUGGESTIONS ON THE ORIGINAL POST ON PG. 1. PLEASE GO TO PAGE 1. AND READ MY FIRST AND SECOND POST.

SORRY IF I'M COMMING OFF LIKE A JERK.

Others have also suggested things and if you go to the sidewalk shuffle they have suggested things and of course on the other Café. but sincerely thank you for the interest.
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