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Payne
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All right then let's reply to your original post

Quote:
On 2007-09-04 17:43, jimmy talksalot wrote:
So here it is;

well for those of you who have had any dealings with the magic societies this ain't new to you.

they suck,



Some do, others don't. It really is all under the control of the local members and what they want to put into or get out of their club. I don't really see how a national organization can control the quality of each and every chapter.
The society's are a federation of clubs not a totalitarian state.

Quote:

they have digressed from their original glory as a faternity



So have every other fraternal orgainisation. When was the last time you saw a Mason who was under the age of sixty?

Quote:

usually at best it's a bunch of old timers who want respect but have failed on providing any of their obligations. and who showed little respect to the ones before them.



So they haven't digressed from their original glory as a faternity. You had me worried there for a minute.

Quote:

they also think we arn't aware of what they are supposed to be providing.

venues, performance halls, practice studios, practical working material instead of packet close up tricks



Where is it written that anyone has to provide any of these things? Where is the proof that the majority of the clubs ever provided these services in the past?
Most of these things cost money. A lot more money than your typical club member is willing to spend. Sure if you want your club dues to increase from say $15.00 to $350.00 a year you might be able to swing some of this stuff. But really most everyone in the club just wants to hang out with their magic buddies once or twice a month for as cheap as possible.

Quote:

they should be providing lectures from real workers more often.



My club hosts six to eight lectures a year. I don't think we could hold anymore than that. Most clubs hold as many lectures as they can afford. Smaller clubs often can't have as many lectures as the larger clubs simply because of the economics of the situation.

{quote]

if they want more money for this they should be providing the above mentioned so we could afford to give more.

[/quote]

This simply doesn't make any sense or are you saying that if they brought in more lectures you'd have access to more material to put in your act and thus make more money? Doesn't really work that way. Most lectures are a crap shoot and your not guaranteed to find anything of value to you at any particular one. Besides I'm sure most of the members of your club aren't workers and so they don't see any monetary gain from the lectures so more lectures for them simply means more out of pocket expense for them.

Quote:

heck years ago I provided venues, a performance space and practice studio for the local magi in el paso, tx. and I wasn't a teacher or a society recieving dues I was just a back yard show working guy. you can ask baltazar fuentes or jamie ohara about my magic shop there.



So what's stopping you from doing this now? You want these services and you've said that you've provided them in the past, why not offer up a plan to your club as to how you could work with them to provide them again?

Quote:

so these society guys have no excuses don't listen to them. if they need to go out of pocket they should they are supposed to be servants, I did and I wasn't elected to anything.



No they are officers of the club not servants, servants usually get paid.
Again if you've done beneficial things in the past what's stopping you now? It's beginning to sound to me like you've found yourself in a club whose not meeting your expectations. It happens. If you can't change it from within start your own group. My current club started out this way. A group was dissatisfied with how things were (or weren't) being run so they broke off and formed a new group. Trying to overhaul the entire national oraginsation simply because you got a bad local group is sorta throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Quote:

don't get me wrong we should also be getting more involved in good work and with money.

many sams and ibms have guys who barely know anything about magic yet they are our presidents and leaders because they got a lot of money from their "real jobs", the problem is they ain't spreadin it around to help us indure the pain of them bein there.



I don't think money has anything to do with who gets elected president of the local group. It's mainly a popularity contest or roping someone into the position. I know getting anyone to come forward and be president of our club is like pulling teeth. we actually haven't had a real election in years as we can only coerce one candidate to run for president at a time. Reading between the lines it sounds like you were running for the job and didn't get it which makes all these postings sour grapes.

Quote:

when you go to these places all you see is a bunch of guys with cards in their hands pretending....where the hell do they work any way?



They don't. they are hbbiests and enthusiets. As I said before if you limited the membership to full time workers you'd have no one in your club.

Quote:

if were gonna act like we are the other society or the renegades who don't need one then we should behave twice as good as them to get crediblity and so we don't screw up beginners heads.

if we reject the societies we should never become the same problem.

with all that said the proper thing to do of course is to try and correct the problems in the sam,ibm,taom, and all the others that we have come into.

we should be cleaning house.



Have fun with that. Change comes from within and you've got to start small and work your way slowly up. to do otherwise will alienate everyone as you can clearly see from the responses you've gotten so far.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Bill Thompson
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Jimmy said:
Quote:
we should be cleaning house.


Kick out all the rich guys, amateurs, and hobbyists sit in the back of the room with their mouths shut. This is what it sounds like. Kicking out the rich guys could cut off a source of income for your club. Their money is what props up a lot clubs.

The first time our club decided to do a public show on our own and not affiliated with the Shrine Clowns was last year. To get a venue we had to come up with a lot of money up front. the club budget was busted. A couple of our more affluent members stepped forward and put up the cash. Our public show was roaring success and this year we had the money to get the venue in the budget. If we had cleaned house those guys wouldn't have been there to help.

We have lecturers come speak and we pay for them... but if we got rid of all the hobbyists and amateurs like myself there wouldn't be any reason to have the lecturers there they wouldn't sell anything and there wouldn't be enough in attendance to pay the lecture fee.

You want to kill an assembly or ring off? Well, you just get rid of the backbone of that club and it will surely go down the tubes.

I think your intentions are to make a clubs for working professionals only, that's fine... why don't you take charge of all these "renegade" organizations and call them The Jimmy Talksalot Club For Professionals Only? Have a sign out front that says beginners, amateurs, hobbyists and rich guys need not apply. oh, and you can be the Grand Poo-Bah of the whole shebang... for life.
"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment.
Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." - Chuang Tse
jimmy talksalot
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O.k. I will repeat myself one more time,

1.this is not isolated to one club....i am a traveller [street performer].

2.i wrote this originally in the other Café where I write articles. I wrote this because I was getting accused of being a blind loyalist to the clubs in my various other articles.

there is such a large body of magi who have these same feelings or worse that I was becoming discredited by association. I have heard these complaints by many, all my life. I am 40. I am baffled that you have never heard the same.

so I posted it where the societies could read it I thought unwittingly it would be helpful for them to know and they would try and fix the problem instead of protecting their position.

mr. payne I am not the enemy, I am on your side. BUT dismissing this LARGE body of magi with complaints is not doing anybody any good.

critisizing me is only reinforcing that they were right all along. you see I was warned.

proof mr. payne? I have provide references through out the thread and actual living people that witnessed with their own eyes. please don't make it my job to jump around and copy and paste all these things for you.

my suggestion is simply ask some of the very old you come in contact with, if any of the things I have said are true.

and everyone is aware that any suggestions I would give to you, you would reject as absurd or out dated....as you have already displayed. you see this is a trophy for you.

this is not for me this is for our art and lifes work.

saddly I think mr. payne your views have brought us to the condition we're in so it's no wonder you seem to think every thing's roses.

ironically as you try and convince that everything is alright your writing is very negative and rittled with defeatism,nilism,settling for less and lacking wit.

sincerly I have not said this to make you mad, in fact quite the contrary I just felt you would prefer honesty.

see the post in sidewalk shuffle or go to the other Café to find some of these magi who have been blown off.


you see I have said it and you can say anything you want to try and discredit it this is an open forum.

but I assure you these sentiments are not going away.

because there are a lot of us who have done our home work wether or not you agree with it.

we have seen and been confronted with these things been blown off so much that it ain't gonna work anymore.

and yes saddly we have had to make our own clubs.

if you have any more questions I feel confident that they have already been answered through out the thread by me or others.

or may be you could just take a little time and investigate with an open mind some things I have suggested.
Payne
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I really could care less how the other clubs or the national organizations are run. I don't belong to SAM, IBM or any other big organization. I don't go to any club meetings other than my own. My club runs to my, and the members satisfaction. We host lectures, hold events, have a youth organization that teaches magic to kids. We have a yearly show in the spring and a mini convention in the fall. Several times a year our meetings are devoted to trick and presentation workshops. You can have your performance critiqued every month if you so choose. We have a very active and diverse group. I'm sure that we're a cut above your average magic club.

Think Globally, Act Locally.

A club is only as good as it's membership and change of this sort comes from the bottom up not the top down.

Perhaps change is needed out there. I don't know as I've never been involved with another club apart from attending an occasional event they might put on.

So rally your troups and get busy and enact those changes you so desperately want. No one is gong to do it for you.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
jimmy talksalot
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Misterbill,

I can see that you don't understand my position I never said to throw out rich guys nor hobbiests. So I'll say this again through copy and paste!


"my issue as I have stated over and over is that; the pro's should be in charge, because they know the ins and outs of being a full time magician better then a hobbiest.

"HOBBIESTS SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HOW TO BE A PRO!"

Please use reading instead of emotion to dicipher what I am saying. my gad it must be my bad spelling. your whole post is a missrepresentation of my opinion.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-09-21 15:21, jimmy talksalot wrote:

"my issue as I have stated over and over is that;

the pro's should be in charge, because they know the ins and outs of being a full time magician better then a hobbiest.



You're assuming that a full time worker

A. Is better qualified to run a club than a hobbyist
B. Wants to hold an office in the club
C. Has the time to run a club

You're also assuming that just because someone makes their living performing magic that they know what they are doing. This isn't always true. We've got a guy who lives in these parts who is by definition a Full Time Working Pro. It is his only source of income apart from the money he gets every few years from suing the city when they try to prohibit him from performing and making balloons for the kiddies on public property. Yes, he's that bad. He's the type of magician that once you hire him, you'll never hire another as long as you live. But since he's a full time worker he's more than qualified to run a club and instruct others in the performance of magic. Right?


Quote:

"HOBBIESTS SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HOW TO BE A PRO!"



Agreed. But you're always going to get this type of behavior, especially in the entertainment business. It happens in all of the branches of the art. I've seen it occur in amateur theater, music as well as magic. Anyplace you get wannabees you're going to encounter those who think they know better. Restricting who's entitled to run a club isn't going to make this problem go away. You'll simply have them sniping in the back instead of the front.

The truth of the matter is that in most of the country you can't run a club without the help of the amateur the hobbyist and the enthusiast. There simply aren't enough professionals to do the job
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
cmwalden
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I already feel myself regretting this post, but I've also seen this sort of thinking float around. One of the difficulties is that some people seem to see magic clubs as a professional organization and others seem to see them as fan/support organizations. I've even heard some discuss magic clubs as though they ought to be like some sort of Medieval guild. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild )

I've seen cynicism on all sides and for me it all boils down to two questions:
1. What do I want from this?
2. What am I willing to do?

What I want changes. I don't think I'm nearly where many are here in my magic business. I work at my art and I work to grow my business. Many things about growing business seem to have little to do with art and more in common with... say... opening a coffee shop. I've determined that beyond some very high-level networking a magical society is not really about growing my business.

I do enjoy spending time with people who understand something about why I am a magician. I also enjoy the opportunity to deal with people who are growing themselves and helping them to explore their interests and build their skills without hitting every single pothole that I did along the way. However I also encounter many people in these environments who seem to have something to prove. "I work harder." "I work more." "I'm more true to the art." "I'm more creative." etc., etc., etc. Yet I've seen that sort of behavior in every single interest group that I've every encountered. There's just something about groups of humans that accentuates their qualities, whether good or bad.

Magic clubs in general are probably a pretty poor soil for growing a magic business-- unless you want to sell tricks to magicians. A professional organization would probably be focused on things like providing insurance (liability and health, etc), legal and business assistance, travel deals, prospect lists, contact services, etc.. It would be more like a magical chamber of commerce than what we see in a magic club. (But, if you've ever been involved with such an organization you see their weaknesses too.)

I stay with magic clubs because they feed my flame of enthusiasm about magic and remind me of when it was all just adventure. I try to bend myself around the politics and the people who are there to broker power. I try to connect with people who can broaden my horizons and who want something that I can provide. I don't see a magic club as an obligation any more. When I don't feel like going, I don't. That's been very healthy and I do it without guilt or apology.

Groucho Marx once said that "“I won't belong to any organization that would have me as a member.” I guess that applies here. When I first encountered magic the people who I saw as magicians were demigods. (Although J.B. Bobo was the first schoolshow magician I ever saw.) Then as I grew I began to see the cracks and the weaknesses in the people and the structure and it just wasn't as grand any more. Now the magic community can be a little bittersweet and it can be very sad at times.

As others have said, no one can really change everything with a sweep of the wand, or even an Internet post. All they can do is work to positively influence the people in their circle and teach them to keep that wave moving outward. I think Jeff McBride and Eugene Burger have tried to do this and I have seen positive things come from people who have taken that part of their teachings seriously. If we as individuals vow to have a "pay it forward" lifestyle and do what we can while encouraging others to do the same when it is their turn then these things change. They won't change for everyone and not at the same time. But they will change for us.

I think this has been a healthy, though sometimes aggressive discussion. We should care about the organizations that we spend our time with and whether that time is well spent. We should feel free to participate to our fullest and make demands of our organizations. If the results are worth the effort then we should make the effort. If they are not then we should be willing to walk away with no guilt. Magicians flourished before there were magic clubs. They can also grow with them and in them.
"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our reality."

- William Shakespeare
jimmy talksalot
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cmwalden,

wow, that was really well put.

thank you.
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Quote:
On 2007-09-22 03:29, jimmy talksalot wrote:

cmwalden,

wow, that was really well put.

thank you.


I agree completely. Like I said before, if I want advice on where and how to get work, I ask the pros in the club. If I want information on products and new tricks I consult with the amateurs and hobbyist. It all works together to give me the broadest possible horizons. Pros know how to go out and get and keep jobs, but they have very little new material. Amateurs and hobbyist don't know a thing about how to get a resturaunt manager to spend what little extra money they have coming in on a magician, but they are always on top of the latest thing to hit the magic market and
how it was the first thing they've fooled their spouse with in over a month. The magic club is the only place I know of that has that sort of mix. The best definition I have ever gotten for the two is that a pro finds new audiences for his
same old tricks, while and amateur finds new tricks for his same old audience.

I think they are still a great place to go to learn from the pros, but you are right, the clubs and societies really have very little to offer the veteran performer, which will drive some pros away, which will leave new magicians without a voice of experience to guide them. I believe that is closer to your point than I have been lately. If that is the case then I agree that something should be reworked to keep the pros more interested.

And if I am completely off the mark, do forgive me, it has been a long week.
G.Gilbert
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Here I go again sticking my nose where it dosnt belong

We have few rings out here but I won't say wich clubs.. I heard it's basically a bunch of guys who get together and show eachother tricks. Im sure its a lot of fun, if your retired and don't have anything better to do.. But I would love to be a part of a club who actually helped me and took care of me... I look at magic as a movement.

"Magicians Helping Magicians"
jimmy talksalot
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Mr.andrews said,
"I think they are still a great place to go to learn from the pros, but you are right, the clubs and societies really have very little to offer the veteran performer, which will drive some pros away, which will leave new magicians without a voice of experience to guide them. I believe that is closer to your point than I have been lately. If that is the case then I agree that something should be reworked to keep the pros more interested."

I would say that's it, but I do not feel that they are still a good place to go learn from pros, but they were in the past, along time ago. I feel many have been driven away over the years. But my respect goes to those pros who have stuck it out.

one other thing I would mention is that the amatuer may in fact learn a lot of fresh material and be very dextarious and have all the mechanics down but a huge portion of them are lacking in any serious peformance skills [move monkeys or hackers] the reason is the lack of stage time and all the complexities that's goes along with it.

Small suggestion if your looking for a pro don't bother going to a meeting on a sat or sun unless he's lecturing there because a pro would be working on the weekend.

Find the local meetings on a weekday.
amazin
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What difference does it make who's running the ring as long as you keep learning
Josh Riel
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That question has been answered multiple times from several point of view.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
jimmy talksalot
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Amazin,

my gad man, didn't you read any of the posts on this thread? from either point of view?
amazin
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All that I'm saying is learning from hobbyists or pros's is still learning. although I agree that "HOBBIESTS SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HOW TO BE A PRO. I still believe that running the show is a lot of work. Are you saying there is nothing you could learn from them? I know I learn something from everyone I talk to.
harris
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Our Ring 129 has Magiversity once a year for the last 3 years.

Pro's and Hobbiest are the instructors. Last night we had another regular meeting. I was able to make it and was glad I did. A mixture of experience was present. A mini lecture on use of EBAY was presented. Myself, I took the opportunity to take part of my new "Things That Bug Me" out for a test drive. There were 2 after the meeting meetings. One took place in the hotel bar, the other group went to Applebees. Both groups had a mix of pro's and hobbiest. One of the people in the Applebees group had a background in theatre as well as magic. (Theatre was my roots as well)

Be safe ..well and creative...

Harris
proud member of ring 129..
(both myself and the ring have lots of room to grow.
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E. S. Andrews
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Quote:
On 2007-10-03 15:26, jimmy talksalot wrote:

small suggestion if your lookin for a pro don't bother goin to a meeting on a sat or sun unless he's lecturing there because a pro would be workin on the weekend.

find the local meetings on a weekday.


That I know. Most of the pros are never around on the weekend, and most of the time they are out of state, but they do crop up on the odd weekend every now and then and are a good resource. And without the belonging to the ring I would never had had an oportunity to get to know them.
Some weekday meetings would be good for letting others get to know them and for attracting more pros to learn from. It is a good idea to pitch to the higher ups in the ring.
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Our meetings are the 1st Thursday of the Month. Can't make em all even on a weeknight. During the Summer I am involved in a Professional Theatre Group.

harri9s (the 9 is silent)
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jimmy talksalot
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Amazin,
you said, "Are you saying there is nothing you could learn from them?"

What brought you to believe I or any one could think that? I can only hope that you were just taking a jab at me. NO I DO NOT THINK THAT.

I think this must be a test to see if my posts are going to be consistent or you just refuse to read any of my other posts or you can't understand me or you simply disagree and are trying to make me angry because you don't have a strong enough argument to show that I am wrong. So for the sake of our art I'll answer this again as I have answered it many many times already. I'm not going to copy and paste the first one because maybe you did not understand it in the previous posts.

the answer is;

Sure, you are learning and that's important, but wouldn't it be better to be learning from a pro? You see the hobbiests have a mixture of error and truth and if your a beginner you wont know how to weed through this stuff.and those errors cost you time, money, and patience, not to mention what it does to us if you're failing and sure the pro's have errors but a lot less. Get it? This is about credability and trying to achieve greatness with the finest tools we can get. NOT WHAT WE'LL SETTLE FOR. As far as pro's not having the time or it being to much work or don't have the skills, I've answered this one over and over again. But I'll do it again, here I've even copied and pasted for you one of them;

"you see just because your not doing magic for a living your still doing some thing for a living TO TAKE UP YOUR TIME."

so there is no difference between hobbiests and pros they both got jobs that take up their time. but one is in the field of what we do.....do you get it? so this is about pro's being responsable and not giving excuses why they can't get involved and why we have a choice to not have amatuers running our societies. I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, honestly. I'm just frustrated because I've had to repeat what I'm saying so many times through out the thread to so many over and over but I'll do it if it will help. but if you're gonna argue with me please bring up something new instead of the same old song and dance. I ASSURE YOU'RE NEXT QUESTION IS PROBABLY ALREADY ANSWERED SOME WHERE IN THIS THREAD. please take the time because so many of us took our time for you when we put them there.
Payne
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You keep making the assumption that if a person makes his full time living performing magic that

A: They have an obligation to share their knowledge
B: Are any good at performing
C: Know the first thing about teaching or mentoring
D: Are any better than administering a club than a non professional

None of these are necessarily true.

I don't see why the Societies need to be responsible for seeing that professional magicians impart their knowledge to anyone.

You want to learn from a Pro? Take a Master Class or one of Bob Fitch's Workshops.
the Societies are social clubs, not institutes of education.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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