|
|
|
|||
| Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts 
|
This is only marginally related to illusions, but I can't find a better topic area so here goes:
We are all very proud of ourselves when we discuss our ethics, and how we won't steal someone else's ideas, yada yada yada. So how come I have seen, in two separate magic publications, pictures and stories highlighting a sketch called "Fountains" that has been performed on cruise ships? Why do we feel it's okay to rip this sketch, then proudly highlight the fact that the stealing was done in our magical journals? Just because it's been done on several different ships? Have we convinced ourselves that it's now become "public domain"? Can someone explain how this sketch is any different than stealing the concept of Origami, just because I've seen it done in lots of different places? Or stealing someone's feature routine, because lots of other magicians have stolen that routine? I really don't see how this is different. The "Fountains" act is not the property of the magicians who performed it at the 2007 Dallas SAM convention. But, they've seen it done, or perhaps even participated in the sketch while onboard a ship, so it's now "fair game"? Why is the stealing of intellectual property okay when it's not a magic trick that's being stolen? This seems a little hypocritical to me. I this post doesn't belong in this forum, please have it moved, but I ask that it not be deleted as I think it's a legitimate question. |
|||||||||
Dizzy Elite user UK 437 Posts
|
I genuinely believe that some magicians don't realise that they are performing an effect or using a prop which has be produce unethically. Once people have paid hundreds of dollars for a prop, they will be very annoyed and in sometimes they will remove it from their act but in other cases it's a case of 'I didn't realise so maybe if I ignore it it will go away'.
I believe what you are saying is right, but you can't buy morals, you can only teach them to people, try and educate them properly. It is a sad state of affairs and you hear about magicians, inventors and dealers being rip-off too often. I think discussing ethics helps new magicians realise how important this is and sadly for most people it will only be important when it happens to them, Diane |
|||||||||
|
M-Illusion Special user 549 Posts
|
Lately, I've been seeing more and more (still not enough, but a start) performers who have been using knock off props or routines do the right thing and remove the material. In an ideal world, it would be nice if the material was never in a show to begin with, but like I said...in an ideal world...
|
|||||||||
|
Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts
|
On the other hand, determining ownership can be tough. I know of one particular instance which happened at theis year's Abbott's Get-together where one performer publicly claimed that another used his material. In this instance I know the bit in question, and it's been around a LONG time ... long before the offended magician was even born. Yet, becasue he's more well-known, his claim will probably be considered true.
|
|||||||||
|
M-Illusion Special user 549 Posts
|
Exactly...it's a tough situation.
|
|||||||||
|
61magic Special user Sacramento California 775 Posts
|
I'm trying to get a better understanding of just what other magicians consider rip offs.
I too would like to know what others feel on this issue. If two people develope similar material with the same effect using a different method (hidden from the public) how do you define a rip off there? If someone takes a known effect and makes major improvements is it still a rip off of the original effect? Any thoughts?
Professor J. P. Fawkes
|
|||||||||
|
Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts
|
There are very few original ideas, I think. Look at all the variations on the "Faust" theme -- making a deal with the devil.
The real point of my post was that I think the magic community is largely composed of hypocrites. They'll tolerate copying if it's done by a "name" act. I think the best advice is to completely remove oneself from the magic community and just perform for your audience; magicians don't pay my bills -- do they pay yours? |
|||||||||
|
The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-09-09 12:13, Starrpower wrote: Actually... they do. Magicians provide me with advice and guidance to help further my art to the point that I can charge a decent dollar for it. Inventors of illusions provide me with new material to entertain my clients with. I'd have neither if I didn't respect others material. Best, Tim |
|||||||||
Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts
|
Tim,
Well spoken. I wonder how many threads there are recently about knock offs and ripp offs. Maybe this is a sign of the times. Hopefully not. For years I was performing a rising card routine exactly like DC. I was taught this by a magi that was my Magical Mentor. I didn't realize that my routine was a ripp off until I saw DC do it. It was word for word the same. I was embarrassed and mad. I immediately removed it from my show. As I thought of better ways to perform it I came up with real winner. So in short, be original with your act and when you perform it perform it with PASSION. That is when you will see where the real magic is and you will bond with your audience. DON'T COPY, STEAL or BUY others hard work. It is all about ethics. [sound of soapbox being slid back under my bed.] My rant is done now. |
|||||||||
|
Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts
|
Quote:
I'd have neither if I didn't respect others material. Sure you would. There are a lot of hack acts out there that steal/copy material from others. Some of them are very famous. Some of them are famous only within our own little community. That's my point -- we often condone it if it's a name act doing it. |
|||||||||
|
The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
|
Hello BYUDAD,
I don't think its that there are more ripoffs now I think there are simply more people willing to take a stand and more people showing there ripoffs on the web so that others can see them. LOL StarrPower.... when I said I would have neither advice or props to further my career... I stand by that. As you point out there are lots of hacks out there but I don't want advice from hacks... I want advice from the original thinkers. They would not be around if we keep ripping them off. What has John Cornelius come out with lately???? Not much. Rob Stiff and his MagicMakers did a pretty good job of stopping that creative flow. Rob would rip and copy Johns stuff 3 months after it hit the market. Can you clarify for me what you are saying. It seems like you are against ripoffs but then you keep saying..the big guys are also doing it so lets say screw the ethics. Maybe I'm missing something. Can you tell us if you are for or against ethics? Should we give up on them or hold to them? Best, Tim |
|||||||||
|
edh Inner circle 4698 Posts
|
Quote:
...Rob Stiff and his MagicMakers did a pretty good job of stopping that creative flow. Rob would rip and copy Johns stuff 3 months after it hit the market. And there are still "name" magicians associated with them. Don't you think that these "name" magicians should be setting an example for the up and coming magi's. Oh..wait, they are setting an example for the up and coming magi's. Just not a good one.
Magic is a vanishing art.
|
|||||||||
|
edh Inner circle 4698 Posts
|
Starpower, you are right. The "name" magicians do get a pass when they rip-off others. No one complains. But let Joe Shmoe do it and they will be run out of town tarred and feathered.
Magic is a vanishing art.
|
|||||||||
|
The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-09-09 20:25, edh wrote: Hello Edh, Lets not forget all the dealers who sell MagicMakers items. Has anyone seen the new " Anti Gravity Coin" DVD? Its John Cornelius's "Coin that falls up" pass all over again with someone else taking credit for it. Any dealer who sells this is participating in the problem. I ordered Healed and Sealed once from a dealer and he sent me the ripoff " Crushed and Cured" DVD from MagicMakers instead. I sent it back and told him to send me what I ordered. His reply was.." I'm just trying to save you money" Best, Tim |
|||||||||
|
Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts
|
Tim,
I respect you a lot and your ethics are always above reproach. This is why you will always succeed at whatever you do. We have had our differences on the Café but you have always been a class act. Magic needs more like you to keep the secrets and ethics growing strong. Penguinmagic is selling one of those antigravity coins videos. How do we stop them, as they are one of magics' biggest sellers? |
|||||||||
|
61magic Special user Sacramento California 775 Posts
|
The problem is a lack of definition on what ripping off really is...
If you took a case to court and had to argue in front of a jury of 12 how would some of claims fair? I don't think very well... I believe before any of us get on this forum and start calling performers, or companies a rip off we should be careful as to how this is done. Magic Café carries a message to many in the magic community and can affect a company, or a personal performer's business. We should be careful and mindful of what is said and how. The two questions I posed in my earlier post are the core of this issue and should be thought about carefully. You want to discuss a true rip off? A guy by the name of Philo T. Farsworth invented american TV, but RCA ripped him off, he never received the acclaim, or financial rewards of this invention and died about pennyless. Now that is a rip off...
Professor J. P. Fawkes
|
|||||||||
Kex Special user Arlington, Texas 577 Posts
|
BYUDAD,
perhaps if we put more focus on the history of magic (not that it will happen) people would know the true nature of origins. Seems that know where magic was fifty to a hundred or more years ago and how it has evolved is no longer importnat... and with that credit is forgotten as well. Truely sad... Kex |
|||||||||
|
The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-09-09 21:58, BYUDAD wrote: Thanks BYUDAD for your nice comments. There is a solution to these dealers but it ain't pretty. LOL We all have the power but many are too lazy or interested to do much about it. We have already started to do something about it in the fact that we are speaking out about it. The next step is simply to not purchase something from a dealer who carries these products. There are so many other dealers available to us that don't sell ripoffs. I say if we order from these guys we tell them we are ordering from them because they DON'T carry ripoffs. If we find out that a dealer we normally deal with is selling ripoffs then we nicely tell them we cannot support dealers who support ripoffs. I am sure this seems like a very useless venture but it is not. Rosa Parks changed US history by boycotting a company that was unfair and she had no other busing options. We have LOTS of shopping options.. so why shop from ripoff sellers???? I'll go first. No more products from Morrissey Magic for me until they stop selling Magic Makers ripoffs! Best, Tim |
|||||||||
|
Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-09-09 17:23, Timothy Drake wrote: My comment was about the hypocrisy within magic. Stealing seems to be okay if the right person is doing the stealing. As for the "Coin that falls up," what's to buy? This is something your learn, not something you buy. Back in the 80's John used to do this all the time at conventions, lectures, etc. and it didn't seem to me he had any problem with people learning it and doing it. |
|||||||||
|
BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-09-08 10:48, Starrpower wrote: Yes exactly. I've seen this done time and time again. A well known modern magician simply reuses an old effect and then claims some kind of ethical copyright for himself. The weird thing is that some people are actually stupid enough to believe it. |
|||||||||
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Ethics in illusions? I don't get it ... (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
| Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
Posted: Sep 8, 2007 02:57 am 
| [ Top of Page ] |
|
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.02 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
|
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < 
|