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Expertmagician
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I don't know if it is true....but, supposedly, Roulette was invented by a monk to raise money for his church.

Then he spent the rest of his life trying to beat the game and died trying.

I don't know if the story is true, but it sounds good Smile

I heard this story years ago.

Guess they did not have eltromagnets then Smile
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silverking
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Tommy, it sounds like Canada Bill when George Devol asked him if he knew the game he was playing in was crooked, and Canada Bill replied 'yeah I knew it was crooked, but it was the only game in town'.

I'm with Danny. You could pay for your own airfare, hotel, great eats, tons of shows out of your OWN wallet, and still come out ahead of playing roulette, system or no system.

I stand and watch the wheel spinning and wonder to myself if these people even have a clue what 5% is, and that they're bucking it every time they push their chips out.
Expertmagician
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Hey, anyone want to PayPal me $100. I'll PayPal them back $95 Smile

Honestly, I will really PayPal you back $95...guaranteed !

If I do that all day long, I can be like a casino Smile
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tommy
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Where can I learn this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gca-bD4gOec
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
stoneunhinged
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Can you beat Roulette? Absolutely. I've done it. No lie.

Jeff
stoneunhinged
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OK. I lied. I'm sorry.

But what's with that Blaine video, anyway? How did he do that?

Of course, with a TV production budget behind you, I suppose you could dump several thousand trying to come up with five in a row. What are the odds on hitting black or red five times in a row, anyway?
tommy
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Obviously casino paid $3200 for hitting black or red five times in a row for a $100 stake. The odds they pay are 31 to 1.

I could tell you the true odds if I knew the rules in the USA. Here there is one Zero and if you back Red or Black or any of the Even money shots and it goes Zero then you lose half your bet. What are the rules in the USA?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2007-09-24 20:00, Expertmagician wrote:
What is worse is that vegas now has some casinos paying Blackjack off with 6 to 5 odds vs. 3 to 2 odds.

Guess they want to suck the blood out of people who don't understand math :-(

As for not understanding math, are you not the one who told us one could bet black and another red and end up even? I thought that was you.

As for 6 to 5 it is a horrid game no doubt. BUT they entice people by offering "bonous circles" and other such nonsense. It "looks" (to those with no math skills) as if it is a better game. Casnio wins again LOL.

Are you telling us you no longer agree with Jason? I am just curious as you were mentioning "outside the box thinking" and such and now you seem resigned to the absolute fact (YES JASON 100% FACT) that the game can not be beaten short of a computer. (Computer plus getting caught= pretty hard time)

Can anyone name and introduce me to a person who makes their living playing roulette? Just curious.

For the record it is a "series of indepent trials". Not like cards and blackjack. Not like Poker where you can read people for the long term. Not like horse racing where you can make bets and sports betting where your betting against and with other people not the casino. It can not be beaten short of a computer.

Now it is time for Jason to make up a fantasy world explination how it theoretically can be beaten, to show how smart he is.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
h2o
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In the 2007 World Game Protection Conference, there was a talk on "Defining advantage play - The great debate". And in the short topic review, we can read "the panel discusses their views on subjects such as digital game tracking systems, preferential shuffling and wheel prediction techniques."
The talk was private, so unless you did participate to the conference, there's no way to know their concerns about "wheel prediction techniques", if the "prediction techniques" are just limited to the use of electronic devices, but anyway that would have been an interesting conference to attend.
tommy
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Some people claim to be able to judge or measure ball and wheel velocity in their head and roughly know where the ball will land, as a computer device might, and do it with enough accuracy to overcome the house edge. The claim can’t be proved one way or the other as the evidence can only be based on statistical results. David Blain walks into a casino and gets five out five even money bets right on the trot but it proves nothing as he might have been into 30 odd other casinos and failed. Even those who truly believe they can achieve this task without a computer might easily have fooled themselves with a serious of lucky results and become convinced that it works. It is theoretically possible if we are smart enough but we are not that smart in reality. The smartest guy in the world can not judge or measure ball and wheel velocity in their head and roughly know where the ball will land, as a computer device might, and do it with enough accuracy to overcome the house edge in reality. Although it is possible that such guys exists some place, I don’t think we have such guys on planet earth but that is just my opinion. It is easy to think there might be or even that you are. Statistics are a great and well known tool that con men take advantage of. Also these theoretically possibility things are used to scam people and even things that some people actually do are used to scam them that can’t. These sort of things are good if you happen to be a con man as they the suckers can’t prove anything. If for example a guy claimed he could do it and teach the technique to others for a fee, then who in a court of law could prove the guy was lying.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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rjs
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How is this compatible with chaos theory?
I thought replaying the tape (spinning the wheel and ball) could lead to different outcomes even if the starting points /velocities appear the same?
Can any mathematicians out there enlighten us?
before the raptor chicken bites my arm off!
h2o
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I agree that all "winning systems" without the use of any kind of electronic device are just plain BS, but following the math discussion maybe the only way to "break" the roulette would be to prove that the "hasard" doesn't exist and could be just "predictable"... but that's an other story...
KingStardog
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I know one thing for certain. I will put any computer or system up against a saw blade wheel or Roluck, and stand there and hand them tissues to dry their eyes. No one cheats the saw blade wheel at roulette. Not many of these roluck wheels still around. Saw blade wheels are even rarer. Robert's pill is twice as big as the one you use. Middle of the page. stands about 6" on nice art deco legs. My wheel is 18" but 14" is common. Hustler toys sweet.....

http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/putandtake.htm

Casino perfect wheels and worn out robot employees? may be something to it...
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2007-09-25 09:29, Dannydoyle wrote:

...the absolute fact (YES JASON 100% FACT) that the game can not be beaten short of a computer. (Computer plus getting caught= pretty hard time)

For the record it is a "series of indepent trials". Not like cards and blackjack. Not like Poker where you can read people for the long term. Not like horse racing where you can make bets and sports betting where your betting against and with other people not the casino. It can not be beaten short of a computer.

Now it is time for Jason to make up a fantasy world explination how it theoretically can be beaten, to show how smart he is.


Danny,

I've made up nothing. I've only tried to demonstrate the problems with absolute statements in an endeavor as varied as gambling and casino games.

An analogy: I don't know anyone (personally) that can run a 9.8 second 100 meters. And 99.99% of the planet can't run one that fast. Should we therefore conclude that it can't be done by ANYONE? I imagine you would agree that concluding that would be silly.

So, while I agree with you that for 99.99% of the world, roulette is a dead-end game with roughly a 5% disadvantage for the player that cannot be overcome by any mathematical manipulation, I stand by my assertion that visual prediction is a very real (although admittedly rare) skill that can be utilized under the proper conditions to beat the game.

I can do no better than to quote this article by Michael Konik (of Cigar Afficiando magazine). He's interviewing Steve Forte about the casino games that can be beaten and those that cannot.

You might find it enlightening. Begin quote.

ROULETTE

"But I'll show you one old game that's still vulnerable to advantage play," Forte says, stopping at a roulette wheel. "Albert Einstein once said you wouldn't win at roulette unless you were stealing chips." Forte shrugs. "I guess even geniuses make mistakes."

Forte instructs his visitor to watch where the ball "falls off" the track and into the dish of spinning numbers. It loses its momentum and dives down at the "10 o'clock" position. On the next spin it does it again. And again. And again. Thirteen times in a row. "There's no such thing as a perfect wheel," Forte says. "They're basically a piece of furniture. They take abuse, they get dirty, they get worn down. They produce biased results." Using a technique called visual prediction, advantage players exploit the wheel's imperfections.

Outlined in How to Beat Roulette, a book by Laurence Scott, the visual-prediction method is built on an immutable law of physics: regardless of how fast the ball is spun by the croupier, it must necessarily end at the same speed. Advantage players beat the wheel from the "back" of the spin, not the front. They play the last four or five revolutions of the ball. After finding a wheel with a clear bias--Forte says there's probably at least one in every major casino in the United States--they clock the speed of the rotor (the spinning dish of numbers), looking for one that takes between two and three seconds per revolution. (This is surprisingly easy to time in your head, without a stopwatch.)

By correlating the speed of the rotor with the ball's predictable "drop point," the advantage player can gauge which number will be sitting directly under the ball when it dives into the dish. Even taking into account the volatility of the ball's bounce, when betting late enough in the spin, advantage players can essentially narrow the list of probable numbers from 38 to 19, obliterating the House's normal 5 percent edge.

In the course of Forte's explanation of visual prediction, the ball has fallen off the same spot on the wheel 25 out of 27 times."

End quote.

What's just been described is the gambling equivalent to a 9.8 second 100 meters. Can anyone do it any old time they want? No. But given the proper circumstances, which may or may not be all that common, it can be done.

You can find the full article here:
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_......,00.html

Knock yourself out Danny. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with a guy that spent 30+ years in the casino industry, is largely regarded as the world's foremost authority on advantage playing and casino scams, and is the author of two very successful books on the subject of gaming protection. Far be it from me to argue from authority, but I'm siding with the acknowledged expert on this one.

What were your qualifications again?

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2007-09-26 11:43, JasonEngland wrote:
After finding a wheel with a clear bias--Forte says there's probably at least one in every major casino in the United States--they clock the speed of the rotor (the spinning dish of numbers), looking for one that takes between two and three seconds per revolution. (This is surprisingly easy to time in your head, without a stopwatch.)

What's just been described is the gambling equivalent to a 9.8 second 100 meters. Can anyone do it any old time they want? No. But given the proper circumstances, which may or may not be all that common, it can be done.



Yes a biased wheel can be beat. That's why they are supposed to clean, oil, and balance the wheel head every day. But I wouldn't call that the gambling equivelent of running a 9.8 100. It's more like running a 9.8, 99 meters. It's not a level playing field. If you are talking about running a "system" on a unbiased wheel, that's one thing, if we are talking about a biased wheelhead, that's quite another.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Dannydoyle
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Took the words out of my fingers Vandy.
Danny Doyle
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tommy
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IF you found a wheel with a clear bias, why would you bother clocking anyway. I mean why not simply bet on the numbers that the clear bias would cause to win more often they should?

Tommy shrugs. "I guess even geniuses make mistakes." Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Vandy Grift
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I believe the bias on the wheel in Jasons example is the drop point. You would need to know which numbers are under and around the drop point at the time the ball falls to be able to increase your chances. So in that case the favored numbers could concievebly change on each spin I guess. It's not like a wheel that is biases by extra lively or really dead tiles in the pockets or something like that.

I suppose it's like the opposite of the way they sometimes ran the scam from the inside. Where the dealer would use the wire to knock the ball into a prefered area of the wheel. Roulette is such a stupid game, I hate it. lol.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
tommy
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Thanks so:

IF you happened to have a computer device that is calibrated to beat a perfect roulette wheel and tried to use it to beat a biased imperfect wheel, it would not work would it? It would have to calibrated to that particular wheel taking the bias into account. Are the computers devices that are being sold made to work on bias drop point wheels of perfect wheels? Or can you get either one.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Vandy Grift
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I really don't know. I don't know anything about those computers.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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