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Jamie D. Grant
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Quote:
On 2007-10-08 06:55, Joey Stalin wrote:
How did this turn from a guy suggesting a nice craft project for those who like doing so, into a pimp the HCH holster?


It started when this poster PM'd me to tell me I was a sucker for buying a product that I'm happy with.

I, however, am not into online wars. I wish the dbaker_creator the best of luck, not only with his project but with his life's goals...

jdg
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2007-10-08 10:58, Frank Starsini wrote:
It might be because in his first post he compared his craft project directly with the holster.

I'm not a holster user but calling people suckers because they buy it as opposed to putting together the craft project is ridiculous for many reasons that I just don't have the time to write about.


Frank is right on here. If the guy bought one and uses it or lets it sit, he is NOT a suker based on the purchase.
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Dustin Baker
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SOMETHING WENT WRONG ON MY COMPUTER AND I COULDN'T FINISH MY LAST POST. HERE'S THE END:

Frank pairs a skill he has (leather work) with easily obtained materials (leather) and makes something useful. You can buy all the leather you want, but without the skill you don't get the pouches.

What you pay Frank for is his skill, and skill is what turns $5 worth of leather into $60 worth of pouch. However, if you had the skills to make it yourself, wouldn't you?


That's what I'm saying makes people suckers. Having the ability to create something, but paying someone else extra money to do it for them. To have knowledge and not apply it.

I don't have tha ability to make quality close-up pouches like Frank - logic offers 2 courses of action:
1.)Go without a pouch.
2.)Buy one from Frank.

On the other hand:

I do have the ability to make a quality shoulder holster for my props - logic offers 2 courses of action:
1.) Buy one for 6 times the build price to save myself 30minutes of work.
2.) Build one myself.

I'm not saying that you're a sucker if you don't "try this craft project", I'm saying your a sucker if you pay others to do things you can feasibly do yourself. Wether it's making a holster for your props or changing a spark-plug in your car, doing it yourself just makes more sense.
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TheAmbitiousCard
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I don't disagree with finding an inexpensive way to make something. I have my own share of usable stuff that looks like crap but nobody sees it.

I just thought sucker was a bit harsh. that's all.
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sickmagic
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Quote:
On 2007-10-08 14:09, dbaker_creator wrote:
SOMETHING WENT WRONG ON MY COMPUTER AND I COULDN'T FINISH MY LAST POST. HERE'S THE END:

Frank pairs a skill he has (leather work) with easily obtained materials (leather) and makes something useful. You can buy all the leather you want, but without the skill you don't get the pouches.

What you pay Frank for is his skill, and skill is what turns $5 worth of leather into $60 worth of pouch. However, if you had the skills to make it yourself, wouldn't you?


That's what I'm saying makes people suckers. Having the ability to create something, but paying someone else extra money to do it for them. To have knowledge and not apply it.

I don't have tha ability to make quality close-up pouches like Frank - logic offers 2 courses of action:
1.)Go without a pouch.
2.)Buy one from Frank.

On the other hand:

I do have the ability to make a quality shoulder holster for my props - logic offers 2 courses of action:
1.) Buy one for 6 times the build price to save myself 30minutes of work.
2.) Build one myself.

I'm not saying that you're a sucker if you don't "try this craft project", I'm saying your a sucker if you pay others to do things you can feasibly do yourself. Wether it's making a holster for your props or changing a spark-plug in your car, doing it yourself just makes more sense.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however keep in mind that not everyone wants to take time to make things. I personally would rather be selling my show then trying to make something I don't have experience with. 20 percent of the work, 80 percent of the results! Have someone else do it if you can and then you can spend more time with family, friends, booking shows, and doing what you want!

When ford was working on building the V8 motor he did not have a clue how to make it happen, he left it up to his employees! Yet he gets the credit for changing the way we look at motors. He put his money and time into getting results with people that had the skills!
jclark
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You know, I had a pretty well reasoned response to some of the pure horse crud that is being slung above, but it just isn't worth it. I have an HCM holster and I like it. It is well made and serves its purpose for me.
ldl1017
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Not to be picky, but marketing is spelled MARKETING not marketting. WHETHER not wether (unless you meant a castrated sheep). ULTERIOR not alterior. It just seems to me that correct spelling makes for a stronger argument.
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Dustin Baker
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Quote:
On 2007-10-08 19:34, ldl1017 wrote:
Not to be picky, but marketing is spelled MARKETING not marketting. WHETHER not wether (unless you meant a castrated sheep). ULTERIOR not alterior. It just seems to me that correct spelling makes for a stronger argument.


Actually correcting the spelling of others is a common ploy used by people who have nothing of substance to add.

It's usually presented as you have here with the typical "Not to be picky" to add a thin, non-confrontational veil along with the "correct spelling makes. . . " to add a condescending flavor.

Most people who have something to say aren't concerned with a few misspellings; in fact, nearly every post thus far has included at least one misspelling. Though yours does not contain misspellings, it contains many errors in punctuation and word usage; I wouldn't be pointing fingers (glass houses and all).

Posted: Oct 8, 2007 9:18pm
Quote:


On 2007-10-08 17:05, jclark wrote:
You know, I had a pretty well reasoned response to some of the pure horse crud that is being slung above, but it just isn't worth it. I have an HCM holster and I like it. It is well made and serves its purpose for me.



Though only the last 5 words hold relevence, I would like to thank Jclark for the second post to actually mention the functionality aspect of the HCM holster. We now have 2 posts to mention something important about it.
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jclark
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sickmagic
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You know, I read through this thread again and I realized just how ridiculous this is. There are so many points that make no sense here.

dbaker_creator says there aren't enough good comments about the functionality of the HCM holster. Then, agrees that there is too much discussion about the HCM holster.

Quote:
On 2007-10-08 13:09, dbaker_creator wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-08 06:55, Joey Stalin wrote:
How did this turn from a guy suggesting a nice craft project for those who like doing so, into a pimp the HCH holster?


My sentiments exactly.


Then this comes along.

Quote:
On 2007-10-08 21:18, dbaker_creator wrote:
Though only the last 5 words hold relevence, I would like to thank Jclark for the second post to actually mention the functionality aspect of the HCM holster. We now have 2 posts to mention something important about it.


What exactly do you want? There is a thread on the Café about the HCM with lots of comments to read. jclark provided you a link.


What else are you complaining about?

Quote:
On 2007-10-05 00:30, dbaker_creator wrote:
P.S. It takes 3 weeks to get a High Caliber Holster, so this
Quote:
The High Caliber Holster is really made for working professionals. The pros who buy them spend more time working on their magic, and don't have the time to try and make their own.

Isn't much of a point. Since it takes 3 weeks to get the holster (more time for customization) and you can get your base unit from eholster.com in 3 days, you'd actually save time by getting one from them. You'd also be getting a customized one.


I got a custom holster in 2 weeks. And all of the HCM holsters are made custom anyway, what are you talking about extra time to get a custom holster?

Quote:
On 2007-10-05 02:52, dbaker_creator wrote:
What bothers me is the simple fact that you twisted my statements in every post, or simply put words in my mouth.


Who is twisting other peoples words now? He said pros don't have time to make their own, not that we are too impatient to wait for it to arrive in the mail.

You also claim over and over that there is no need to buy a product if you can make it yourself. I can see where you are coming from, but I doubt you make everything you need yourself.

If this were a forum for machinists, I imagine it would be about making your own tools. It's not very difficult for a machinist to make an end wrench that would work good enough for short run production. Sometimes they need to make a tool like a wrench because they have a unique part that has been made which requires its own tool. It's nothing that's unheard of in this field, making your own tool. Keep in mind though, these guys are in the business of machining parts out of metal. Every day, these people make parts with all sort of machines. Funny thing is, if you ever walk into a machine shop you will see tools all over the place. There will be machines, screwdrivers, wrenches, pliers, hammers, and many more. Now do you think that a professional shop would have an employee stop production to make a wrench just because he can? No! Why? Because the operators job is to make money. Every minute he spends on something other than turning out parts, he is losing money for the shop owner. So just because he can make a screwdriver, that doesn't mean he shouldn't buy one from a reputable tool manufacturer. These people are in the business of machining parts for people. So they need to do what they can to make sure they are making parts as fast, and efficiently as they can. If a machine breaks, they buy the replacement part from the manufacturer. Sure they could make the replacement part in the shop, and maybe cheaper too. But if the part is readily available, they will never stop production to make the part themselves. That would just be stupid.

So as I said before, I don't really have extra time. Who really does? But if I did, I would prefer to spend it finding other ways to expand my magic business. And when I am not working, I prefer to spend quality time with my family.

There are many different types of magicians. Some are very crafty, and some are not. I know a few who are machinists. My machinist buddies buy their coins from Schoolcraft or Lassen, go figure! Of course they could make their own if they wanted. But when someone else has already done all of the R&D for them, they go to the expert to get what they need.

Then you contradict yourself by saying that people shouldn't build their own illusions because illusions really need to function properly. Building your own illusion means it won't function properly? Oh, I see you claim to be an illusion designer in your profile. It all makes sense now! Also....um, don't strolling magicians needs their props to function properly too? If an expertly made device is available to them what is the difference between that and an expertly made illusion to an illusionist? I don't see the difference at all.

Then you're upset about the "marketting" of HCM too. What's the problem with advertising to professional people? While dbaker_creator thinks the marketing done by HCM is why the product sells, I disagree. I think the concept, and the product itself is what sells the product. I bought my first HCM holster before seeing any advertisement. I think the reason why HCM markets the holster to "professionals" is because professional magicians who make a living entertaining can appreciate a product that makes their job easier.

This doesn't mean you must be a professional to buy the product. But if you're not a pro, it might not be totally necessary for you. You wouldn't go out and buy a Formula 1 racing car, would you? No, because it is for professional race car drivers. Sure, you could probably buy a Formula 1 car if you really wanted to, but would it really be be necessary for you? If you are not a professional race car driver and you want a car, then you should probably just go get your Honda you seem to be so fond of. Maybe a BMW isn't your choice of car, but what's wrong with people if they do like them.

After all this, I agree that people will make their mind up for themselves. If they want a holster, they will either buy one from HCM or make it themselves. If you are confident that you can make your own holster, then do it! But going on and on like this is extremely childish. I could argue this thing all day long, but I won't because I have better things to do.

Quote:
On 2007-10-05 02:52, dbaker_creator wrote:
Though to be fair, the snooty way you promote your product (as though it where THE STATUS SYMBOL) is fairly annoying.


How does he promote in a snooty way? I saw one advertisement in SM magazine. A pretty awesome one, might I add. I didn't see anything snooty about it. Your the only snooty one here.

Quote:
On 2007-10-05 02:52, dbaker_creator wrote:
Thank you for your "offer", but I require no assistance. As I've stated already, I've already converted my pouches and have used the system several times. Successfully I might add.
Prior to your hijacking of the thread for an advertising slot, I was "spreading my knowledge" just fine thank you.


Good for you, but please don't spread anything on me.


I think most people are smart enough not to make a decision based solely on one individual's point of view. If not, civilization as we know it would be at its demise.
Dustin Baker
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Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
You know, I read through this thread again and I realized just how ridiculous this is. There are so many points that make no sense here.

dbaker_creator says there aren't enough good comments about the functionality of the HCM holster. Then, agrees that there is too much discussion about the HCM holster.

Quote:
On 2007-10-08 13:09, dbaker_creator wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-08 06:55, Joey Stalin wrote:
How did this turn from a guy suggesting a nice craft project for those who like doing so, into a pimp the HCH holster?


My sentiments exactly.



Where in there does it say that I think there is too much discussion about the HCM holster? As Joey said, the thread changed from a "craft project" suggestion to a commercial (aka "pimp the HCH holster").

My next statement states that I'm happy that someone finally said something relevant! The other posts mention only the look of the holster, the fact that it came assembled, and/or made reference to the "made for pros"/"status symbol" marketing. I was glad that Jclark (and Dave V earlier) had mentioned something relevant, relating to the performance/utility of the product, rather than blowing off the same stuff as everyone else.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-05 00:30, dbaker_creator wrote:
P.S. It takes 3 weeks to get a High Caliber Holster, so this
Quote:
The High Caliber Holster is really made for working professionals. The pros who buy them spend more time working on their magic, and don't have the time to try and make their own.

Isn't much of a point. Since it takes 3 weeks to get the holster (more time for customization) and you can get your base unit from eholster.com in 3 days, you'd actually save time by getting one from them. You'd also be getting a customized one.


I got a custom holster in 2 weeks. And all of the HCM holsters are made custom anyway, what are you talking about extra time to get a custom holster?


Sorry, I can only work with what the HCM site and Joel's posts here on the Café can give me. The wording on the site suggests that customization costs more (and common sense would assume the same) and takes longer - and Joel has told people on the Café to expect delivery to take 3 weeks.

P.S. Joel, if this is correct and customization has no extra charges, bravo. That's very unusual in any industry and practically unheard of in this one. Again, bravo.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Who is twisting other peoples words now? He said pros don't have time to make their own, not that we are too impatient to wait for it to arrive in the mail.

I removed the rest since Joel and I cleared that up already – no sense in re-awakening it.

Let's try to hit context. If you have time to wait 2-3weeks, you have time to take the 30minutes to do it yourself - that's what I said. On another point, if people are saying that 30minutes of their time isn't worth $250, they're either Bill Gates or *** arrogant - since I doubt you are without a 30minute period where you aren’t making money or fulfilling other responsibilities.

Mr. Rock_Slatestone (Page 2 top) is an excellent example. The guy has “18 kids” (I’ll guess 6) and is working as a magician part time (has a full time job besides). THIS MAN REALLY HAS NO FREE TIME, and he’s taking the 30minutes to make one. With X number of kids, I doubt your time is more valuable than his.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
You also claim over and over that there is no need to buy a product if you can make it yourself. I can see where you are coming from, but I doubt you make everything you need yourself.

Did I not specifically say that 3 posts ago? Scotch and soda gimmick? Talked about pouches? Ringing a bell?

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
. . . Now do you think that a professional shop would have an employee stop production to make a wrench just because he can? No! Why?

. . . paraphrased, because it’s really long. . .

But if the part is readily available, they will never stop production to make the part themselves. That would just be stupid.


You do realize that you just compared mass-production to made-to-order right? As you specifically said moments ago:

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
. . . all of the HCM holsters are made custom. . .

So, in what way does your example relate? You are correct, it would be foolish for a mass producer to stop production to make a wrench, but where is there a mass producer in this discussion? Non-sequitor, moving on. . .

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
So as I said before, I don't really have extra time. Who really does? But if I did, I would prefer to spend it finding other ways to expand my magic business. And when I am not working, I prefer to spend quality time with my family.

If you learn how to save a few bucks here and there, you won't need to work so hard, and you can spend a lot more time with your family. Think about it. How much time do you spend making the money to buy the stuff you could make yourself? Hmmmm. Economists refer to this as “opportunity cost”. Look it up, it may prove useful in the future.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
There are many different types of magicians. Some are very crafty, and some are not. I know a few who are machinists. My machinist buddies buy their coins from Schoolcraft or Lassen, go figure! Of course they could make their own if they wanted. But when someone else has already done all of the R&D for them, they go to the expert to get what they need.

Again, didn't I say something REALLY similar before? It involved theambitiouscard.com and pouches? Ringing any bells?

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Then you contradict yourself by saying that people shouldn't build their own illusions because illusions really need to function properly. Building your own illusion means it won't function properly?


Huh? When did I say anything like that?
Again, didn't I say in a post a few moments ago that -some gimmicks require specialized materials, skills, and tools and such gimmicks should logically be purchased rather than built by the magician himself?

The statement you are referring to said that "If you build your own illusions they will do WHAT you want them to do HOW you want them to do it." This doesn't require in-depth interpretation. I often get ideas about something I'd like to be able to do. I then see if something else already does that. Maybe the existing product doesn't do exactly WHAT I want or maybe it doesn't do it HOW I want - hence I build one myself to do WHAT I want HOW I want.

I am truly amazed that you could twist my meanings to this degree and keep a straight face, since it is BEYOND obvious that your readings here are no where close to the intended meanings.


Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Then you're upset about the "marketing" of HCM too. What's the problem with advertising to professional people? While dbaker_creator thinks the marketing done by HCM is why the product sells, I disagree.

1: I believe I described the marketing as "genius" in one post.
2: There is nothing wrong with marketing to professional people. In fact, from a business standpoint there are very few profitable things that are "wrong".
3: As a person, there is something wrong with suggesting that "You are not a professional if you don't have this product" - which is what HCM's marketing suggests. That’s where the “snootiness” comes in.
4: I think ALOT of people buy the product because of the marketing, but it's likely not the only reason. It's a good idea, and good ideas typically succeed; however, the idea is not original to HCM. eholster has been in the "carry your stuff shoulder holster" business since the early 90's.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
I bought my first HCM holster before seeing any advertisement.

I'm yet to see the advertisement. I refer to Joel's posts and the HCM site.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
I think the reason why HCM markets the holster to "professionals" is because professional magicians who make a living entertaining can appreciate a product that makes their job easier.

Right, so only "professional" magicians can appreciate something that makes carrying props/stuff easier? Dang, better tell Levi's to stop wasting denim putting pockets on jeans - only professional magicians can appreciate the concept.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
This doesn't mean you must be a professional to buy the product.

But if you're not a pro, it might not be totally necessary for you.

You wouldn't go out and buy a Formula 1 racing car, would you? No, because it is for professional race car drivers.


You're right, If we are to believe the marketting, ownership of this product is what decides whether or not you are a professional at all.

That's right, only pros need to carry that limited number of things.

Some regular people do own Formula-1 cars. They’re fans of the sport and have one "because they can". It's a symbol of affluence and status - oh, look where we are again!

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Sure, you could probably buy a Formula 1 car if you really wanted to, but would it really be be necessary for you?


Do you mean to imply that a HCM holster is necessary for a professional magician? That’s pretty funny, since I think most magicians got by alright before the HCM holster.

Quote:
If you are not a professional race car driver and you want a car, then you should probably just go get your Honda you seem to be so fond of.


I actually drive a Ford. I use Honda and BMW specifically because the comparison has been made by others before. It is considered a classic example of paying for function (Honda) or illusionary status (BMW).

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
After all this, I agree that people will make their mind up for themselves. If they want a holster, they will either buy one from HCM or make it themselves. If you are confident that you can make your own holster, then do it! But going on and on like this is extremely childish. I could argue this thing all day long, but I won't because I have better things to do.

You'd think that this would be the end of the post wouldn't you? Go figure, maybe you don't "have better things to do." In that case, since you've got 30spare minutes to write all this crap - go make a holster. After-all shouldn't you be doing something that "expands your magic" or gets you a booking? If you have no free time, why are you on this site? Is the family you spend all your free time with huddled around the computer with you?

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-05 02:52, dbaker_creator wrote:
Though to be fair, the snooty way you promote your product (as though it where THE STATUS SYMBOL) is fairly annoying.


How does he promote in a snooty way? I saw one advertisement in SM magazine. A pretty awesome one, might I add. I didn't see anything snooty about it. Your the only snooty one here.


I've gone though that already. If you can't see through the smoke and mirrors marketting, that's your problem.
As I also said, I never saw the SM magazine add. After seeing the first issue, I lost interest.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-05 02:52, dbaker_creator wrote:
Thank you for your "offer", but I require no assistance. As I've stated already, I've already converted my pouches and have used the system several times. Successfully I might add.
Prior to your hijacking of the thread for an advertising slot, I was "spreading my knowledge" just fine thank you.


Good for you, but please don't spread anything on me.

Ditto.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
I think most people are smart enough not to make a decision based solely on one individual's point of view. If not, civilization as we know it would be at its demise.

Welcome to the end of the world sickmagic. Do you talk to people on a daily basis? Because "most people" are idiots. "A person is smart, people are stupid. . . " - Tommy Lee Jones.

Most people make decisions based on their own point of view (hint: that's only one person - civilization is doomed).
Think inside the box. . . it's less crowded.
karbonkid
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You all make me feel like my pockets are so passe.
sickmagic
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"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals. You know it."
-A quote from a character in the movie "Men In Black", portrayed by Tommy Lee Jones. Not a quote said by Tommy Lee Jones.

"People who will suggest that the American motion-picture audience is dumb are sadly mistaken. Americans are not dumb. We don't read enough books: we may watch too much television. But these people are not idiots."
-Tommy Lee Jones

"Because "most people" are idiots."
-dbaker_creator........ Real nice guy.

I am done with this; you seem to think that pointing out quotes and making yourself look like you know everything is going to make people respect the product you are trying to HYPE! That’s right, you are doing the same exact thing that you claim Joel at HCM is doing! So you can't have your cake and eat it too, therefore I am not involved anymore. I do believe you have some valid points; however it is also very clear that you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. Good luck in your future endeavors and please keep in mind that if you ever want to quote someone make sure it is them and not a character that they portrayed!
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Dbaker_Creator said:

"Steven, you sir are the consumer I posted this for.

Wants: Quality, Functionality, Customization, and Economical Pricing

You personally will like this because you can replace any parts that your kids might happen to break (it's inevitible - let's face it)!

Why not save yourself the $250 and spend the 30 minutes it'll take you to get yourself set-up? $250 goes a long way on a trip to Costco.

There's paying for quality - then there's being a sucker."

MY REPLY:
dbaker, despite you saying (at the beginning of this thread) that you were not attacking HCM, the above statement proves otherwise. Through it you are saying if I buy HCM's product I am being a sucker and that HCM is the con-artist.

Thanks to this whole thread and everyone's thoughts, I think it would be a better option if I wait and save up for HCM's product. Joel will work with me so it fits what I am needing (within reason I'm sure...can you fit a square circle production in an HCM holster?) and it looks crisp and professional.

I may be only a part-time performer but I am still a full-time magician. I need and want to look professional. If that makes me a sucker then I will at least look professional at it.
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Hi folks,

Just wanted to come back to clear a few things up.

themagiccafe.com was started for a reason. There is a slogan you see every time you visit here: "Magicians Helping Magicians". So far, I think it has served its purpose. Let's keep the theme here by being magicians helping magicians.

First things first, I apologize if my website doesn't make some of this clear. I will make some changes where they are needed.

All the holsters are made to order. I don't keep any in stock. So technically they are all custom made. But if you don't ask, nothing is done differently than the standard holster. Usually I don't charge anything for special requests, unless you are re-designing the entire holster. There is never any extra wait for holsters if you have a special request, unless we can't figure out and agree on a design. Most people are surprised just how flexible the standard designs are, usually very little or no custom work is needed to fulfill your requirements.

There are some new changes that have recently been made to the holsters. The online photos don't reflect the changes. Holsters now have four grommets which allow you you to hang your own holders and loads off either side of the holster. By popular demand, the back strap also now has a grommet for hanging your own loads on your back. I am also adding eyelets to the small pocket so you can put a mini ITR in the pocket and thread it through the eyelet. I also have a new holster that will be up very soon; I just haven't been able to build the new webpage for it. I have new things to put up, but not enough time do actually do it! All the new items and corrections will be made on the website very soon.

For those who can't afford the Original holster, the Ricochet is a less costly solution. And custom designs can be made for a fraction of the Original's price. Many hours go into each holster I make. If you took this to a leatherworker to be duplicated, you would see I am quite underpaid for what I do. I don't want to go into too many details about the labor, but depending on the complexity of the job most holsters usually require between 5-10 hours of labor.

My build time fluctuates, right now it's about 10 days. Sometimes I have less work and I can do it faster, sometimes it takes a little longer. It all depends on what workload I have at the time. I will always let you know if it is going to take longer when you order.

I am just one guy, but I do my absolute best for each and every person with whom I work. I want you to get what you need to help with your work. That's my goal.

Finally, those who know me know I have a fair amount of magic experience. I'm not here to toot my own horn, so I am not posting a resume or credentials. Smile But, there are reasons for every design note of my holsters. And that all comes from my personal experience. Here is an example, forgive me as it is simple but a little technical. The Sharpie holder is on the right side, so you remove it with your left hand. This puts the cap in your left hand immediately ready for a right handed person to grasp the marker in writing position and pull off the cap without having to switch hands. Try this little test and you will see what I mean. If you are right handed and currently retrieve your Sharpie with your right hand by the cap, you will notice that you probably switch hands and rotate the Sharpie around to pull the cap off with your left hand. There are three ways to make yourself look very smooth when doing something as simple as taking out a Sharpie. Most people store their Sharpie by hanging it on a pocket with the cap's clip. If you must retrieve the Sharpie with your right hand, try finding a spot to store the pen cap down so you retrieve the Sharpie in writing position. You will notice how much smoother it looks when you ready the pen for a spectator. Or, you can simply train yourself to remove the cap with your strong hand. Or the easiest solution, retrieve the Sharpie by the cap with your non-writing hand. This is a simple simple little note to make that really doesn't seem like it will affect performance, but it's important to think of these things when planning out where your props go. Little things really do make a difference.

Another similar note regarding your business cards. On the holster, the business cards are in a pocket on your right side. The reason for this is simple. The business cards are retrieved with your left hand because your right is for shaking hands. When you are shaking someone's hand, your left hand can go into your holster to grab a business card and you can get the card into their hand almost without them realizing it. You simply shake their hand looking them dead in the eye. At the same time retrieve a business card, they won't even notice. As you release the shaking of the hands you basically switch your shaking hand with the business card hand. They are looking at you one moment, shaking your hand then instantly they have your card in their hand. It's an extreme subtlety, but it is almost magical to them. They instantly feel a connection between themselves and you through a business card. I know it might sound a little silly, but trust me, it does something psychologically. Maybe it doesn't do something every time, but it certainly doesn't hurt. So go ahead and try those two things and you will see what I mean.

I didn't mean to go off on a tangent, but I wanted to let you know that I take prop placement seriously, and you should too. It's not likely you can throw together something in thirty minutes with that kind of attention to detail. That's where expertly made products can come in to help you. It's not about status at all. It's about functionality. Every holster I send out is a work of art to me. I put a lot of effort into the design, and each holster has my sweat, tears, and sometimes blood in it. Okay, not really in it! But you get my drift, I work hard! I hope every holster I send out will help the owner hone his or her skill in at least one way you weren't before. My goal is to help. That is all.

As I have said before, I am always available to discuss any questions you all may have regarding my work. Please, if you have a question don't hesitate to pick up the phone and call me. It takes a long time to come on here and write your thoughts. I try to come on the forums and jump in when I need to, but a simple phone call can really answer a lot of questions. I prefer you get your answers directly from me, and I won't be offended if you ask a question and don't buy something. I just don't want people to be misinformed about what it is that I do.

dbaker_creator,
When you can't be sure about your facts, it's best not to share them at all. You can really lose credibility from your peers when you misinform them, so please be careful what you say on here.

With that said, I wish you all the best. I hope everyone can learn something from this thread, I know I have. I try to remember that there are lessons to be learned from everything I encounter in life. Sometimes what seems like a waste of time isn't really a waste; it's a challenge. The challenge of determining ones priorities is also about exercising self control; knowing when enough is enough.

Regards,
Joel Broock
High Caliber Magic
(818)312-2736
info@hcmagic.com
http://www.highcalibermagic.com
Joel Broock
High Caliber Magic, LLC
www.highcalibermagic.com
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-10 01:26, dbaker_creator wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
You know, I read through this thread again and I realized just how ridiculous this is. There are so many points that make no sense here.

dbaker_creator says there aren't enough good comments about the functionality of the HCM holster. Then, agrees that there is too much discussion about the HCM holster.

Quote:
On 2007-10-08 13:09, dbaker_creator wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-08 06:55, Joey Stalin wrote:
How did this turn from a guy suggesting a nice craft project for those who like doing so, into a pimp the HCH holster?


My sentiments exactly.



Where in there does it say that I think there is too much discussion about the HCM holster? As Joey said, the thread changed from a "craft project" suggestion to a commercial (aka "pimp the HCH holster").

My next statement states that I'm happy that someone finally said something relevant! The other posts mention only the look of the holster, the fact that it came assembled, and/or made reference to the "made for pros"/"status symbol" marketing. I was glad that Jclark (and Dave V earlier) had mentioned something relevant, relating to the performance/utility of the product, rather than blowing off the same stuff as everyone else.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-05 00:30, dbaker_creator wrote:
P.S. It takes 3 weeks to get a High Caliber Holster, so this
Quote:
The High Caliber Holster is really made for working professionals. The pros who buy them spend more time working on their magic, and don't have the time to try and make their own.

Isn't much of a point. Since it takes 3 weeks to get the holster (more time for customization) and you can get your base unit from eholster.com in 3 days, you'd actually save time by getting one from them. You'd also be getting a customized one.


I got a custom holster in 2 weeks. And all of the HCM holsters are made custom anyway, what are you talking about extra time to get a custom holster?


Sorry, I can only work with what the HCM site and Joel's posts here on the Café can give me. The wording on the site suggests that customization costs more (and common sense would assume the same) and takes longer - and Joel has told people on the Café to expect delivery to take 3 weeks.

P.S. Joel, if this is correct and customization has no extra charges, bravo. That's very unusual in any industry and practically unheard of in this one. Again, bravo.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Who is twisting other peoples words now? He said pros don't have time to make their own, not that we are too impatient to wait for it to arrive in the mail.

I removed the rest since Joel and I cleared that up already – no sense in re-awakening it.

Let's try to hit context. If you have time to wait 2-3weeks, you have time to take the 30minutes to do it yourself - that's what I said. On another point, if people are saying that 30minutes of their time isn't worth $250, they're either Bill Gates or *** arrogant - since I doubt you are without a 30minute period where you aren’t making money or fulfilling other responsibilities.

Mr. Rock_Slatestone (Page 2 top) is an excellent example. The guy has “18 kids” (I’ll guess 6) and is working as a magician part time (has a full time job besides). THIS MAN REALLY HAS NO FREE TIME, and he’s taking the 30minutes to make one. With X number of kids, I doubt your time is more valuable than his.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
You also claim over and over that there is no need to buy a product if you can make it yourself. I can see where you are coming from, but I doubt you make everything you need yourself.

Did I not specifically say that 3 posts ago? Scotch and soda gimmick? Talked about pouches? Ringing a bell?

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
. . . Now do you think that a professional shop would have an employee stop production to make a wrench just because he can? No! Why?

. . . paraphrased, because it’s really long. . .

But if the part is readily available, they will never stop production to make the part themselves. That would just be stupid.


You do realize that you just compared mass-production to made-to-order right? As you specifically said moments ago:

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
. . . all of the HCM holsters are made custom. . .

So, in what way does your example relate? You are correct, it would be foolish for a mass producer to stop production to make a wrench, but where is there a mass producer in this discussion? Non-sequitor, moving on. . .

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
So as I said before, I don't really have extra time. Who really does? But if I did, I would prefer to spend it finding other ways to expand my magic business. And when I am not working, I prefer to spend quality time with my family.

If you learn how to save a few bucks here and there, you won't need to work so hard, and you can spend a lot more time with your family. Think about it. How much time do you spend making the money to buy the stuff you could make yourself? Hmmmm. Economists refer to this as “opportunity cost”. Look it up, it may prove useful in the future.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
There are many different types of magicians. Some are very crafty, and some are not. I know a few who are machinists. My machinist buddies buy their coins from Schoolcraft or Lassen, go figure! Of course they could make their own if they wanted. But when someone else has already done all of the R&D for them, they go to the expert to get what they need.

Again, didn't I say something REALLY similar before? It involved theambitiouscard.com and pouches? Ringing any bells?

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Then you contradict yourself by saying that people shouldn't build their own illusions because illusions really need to function properly. Building your own illusion means it won't function properly?


Huh? When did I say anything like that?
Again, didn't I say in a post a few moments ago that -some gimmicks require specialized materials, skills, and tools and such gimmicks should logically be purchased rather than built by the magician himself?

The statement you are referring to said that "If you build your own illusions they will do WHAT you want them to do HOW you want them to do it." This doesn't require in-depth interpretation. I often get ideas about something I'd like to be able to do. I then see if something else already does that. Maybe the existing product doesn't do exactly WHAT I want or maybe it doesn't do it HOW I want - hence I build one myself to do WHAT I want HOW I want.

I am truly amazed that you could twist my meanings to this degree and keep a straight face, since it is BEYOND obvious that your readings here are no where close to the intended meanings.


Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Then you're upset about the "marketing" of HCM too. What's the problem with advertising to professional people? While dbaker_creator thinks the marketing done by HCM is why the product sells, I disagree.

1: I believe I described the marketing as "genius" in one post.
2: There is nothing wrong with marketing to professional people. In fact, from a business standpoint there are very few profitable things that are "wrong".
3: As a person, there is something wrong with suggesting that "You are not a professional if you don't have this product" - which is what HCM's marketing suggests. That’s where the “snootiness” comes in.
4: I think ALOT of people buy the product because of the marketing, but it's likely not the only reason. It's a good idea, and good ideas typically succeed; however, the idea is not original to HCM. eholster has been in the "carry your stuff shoulder holster" business since the early 90's.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
I bought my first HCM holster before seeing any advertisement.

I'm yet to see the advertisement. I refer to Joel's posts and the HCM site.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
I think the reason why HCM markets the holster to "professionals" is because professional magicians who make a living entertaining can appreciate a product that makes their job easier.

Right, so only "professional" magicians can appreciate something that makes carrying props/stuff easier? Dang, better tell Levi's to stop wasting denim putting pockets on jeans - only professional magicians can appreciate the concept.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
This doesn't mean you must be a professional to buy the product.

But if you're not a pro, it might not be totally necessary for you.

You wouldn't go out and buy a Formula 1 racing car, would you? No, because it is for professional race car drivers.


You're right, If we are to believe the marketting, ownership of this product is what decides whether or not you are a professional at all.

That's right, only pros need to carry that limited number of things.

Some regular people do own Formula-1 cars. They’re fans of the sport and have one "because they can". It's a symbol of affluence and status - oh, look where we are again!

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Sure, you could probably buy a Formula 1 car if you really wanted to, but would it really be be necessary for you?


Do you mean to imply that a HCM holster is necessary for a professional magician? That’s pretty funny, since I think most magicians got by alright before the HCM holster.

Quote:
If you are not a professional race car driver and you want a car, then you should probably just go get your Honda you seem to be so fond of.


I actually drive a Ford. I use Honda and BMW specifically because the comparison has been made by others before. It is considered a classic example of paying for function (Honda) or illusionary status (BMW).

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
After all this, I agree that people will make their mind up for themselves. If they want a holster, they will either buy one from HCM or make it themselves. If you are confident that you can make your own holster, then do it! But going on and on like this is extremely childish. I could argue this thing all day long, but I won't because I have better things to do.

You'd think that this would be the end of the post wouldn't you? Go figure, maybe you don't "have better things to do." In that case, since you've got 30spare minutes to write all this crap - go make a holster. After-all shouldn't you be doing something that "expands your magic" or gets you a booking? If you have no free time, why are you on this site? Is the family you spend all your free time with huddled around the computer with you?

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-05 02:52, dbaker_creator wrote:
Though to be fair, the snooty way you promote your product (as though it where THE STATUS SYMBOL) is fairly annoying.


How does he promote in a snooty way? I saw one advertisement in SM magazine. A pretty awesome one, might I add. I didn't see anything snooty about it. Your the only snooty one here.


I've gone though that already. If you can't see through the smoke and mirrors marketting, that's your problem.
As I also said, I never saw the SM magazine add. After seeing the first issue, I lost interest.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-05 02:52, dbaker_creator wrote:
Thank you for your "offer", but I require no assistance. As I've stated already, I've already converted my pouches and have used the system several times. Successfully I might add.
Prior to your hijacking of the thread for an advertising slot, I was "spreading my knowledge" just fine thank you.


Good for you, but please don't spread anything on me.

Ditto.

Quote:
On 2007-10-09 21:48, sickmagic wrote:
I think most people are smart enough not to make a decision based solely on one individual's point of view. If not, civilization as we know it would be at its demise.

Welcome to the end of the world sickmagic. Do you talk to people on a daily basis? Because "most people" are idiots. "A person is smart, people are stupid. . . " - Tommy Lee Jones.

Most people make decisions based on their own point of view (hint: that's only one person - civilization is doomed).


I just wanted to say dang...

By the looks of this post you don't mind "working" on stuff. How long did it take to put that post together? You could have made two more holsters by now! lol
-Hart

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Magician Portland Oregon
sickmagic
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Quote:
On 2007-10-11 12:54, HCM wrote:
When you can't be sure about your facts, it's best not to share them at all. You can really lose credibility from your peers when you misinform them, so please be careful what you say on here.



Quote:
On 2007-10-10 01:26, dbaker_creator wrote:
eholster has been in the "carry your stuff shoulder holster" business since the early 90's.



I can't say for sure that this is fact, and I'm not saying what you said is wrong.  But as I looked into the eholster thing, I noticed something. Makes me realize how much less I can trust what some people say.


The following is sourced directly from http://www.eholster.com/aboutus.html 


With this perspective Tom set out on a sojurn in January 1999 to create the e-Holster. As luck would have it Tom found Jerry Ahern, a personal concealment expert headquartered in Commerce, GA who had honed his skill with firearms. Jerry intuitively understood the problem with personal electronics and crafted a crude prototype out of leather in February 1999.


Maybe you got your information from a bad source and it's not really your fault. But your track record makes me feel otherwise.
Dustin Baker
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Sickmagic:
No, that one's my fault. I thought one of the press-clip articles said one of them was making gadget holsters in 93', then they started the site in 99'.

Even if that's the case, my previous statement was still incorrect.


Hart: It took me about 45minutes to type that responce. I don't claim to be without time, and rather enjoy doing things myself.

Joel:

Quote:
All the holsters are made to order. I don't keep any in stock. So technically they are all custom made. But if you don't ask, nothing is done differently than the standard holster. Usually I don't charge anything for special requests, unless you are re-designing the entire holster. There is never any extra wait for holsters if you have a special request, unless we can't figure out and agree on a design. Most people are surprised just how flexible the standard designs are, usually very little or no custom work is needed to fulfill your requirements.


That's one heck of a customer service plan. I must say I've never heard of a company that did custom work without charging additional fees. Once again, bravo on that.
Think inside the box. . . it's less crowded.
HCM
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Quote:
On 2007-10-11 19:14, dbaker_creator wrote:
That's one heck of a customer service plan. I must say I've never heard of a company that did custom work without charging additional fees. Once again, bravo on that.



Everyone has unique needs. Some have more than others. I just try find a balance so my craft can work for everyone.



Thank you for the credit, I sincerely appreciate it.

Joel Broock
High Caliber Magic
Joel Broock
High Caliber Magic, LLC
www.highcalibermagic.com
Darren Kidby
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Hey Joel,
I like your new ideas for the holster,
I was thinking along the same lines.

Darren...
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