Joel, you aren't "making your own", you're adding straps to pouches and linking them to an existing base. Most magician's already have pouches or holders for much of their equipment, so the conversion is hardly difficult or time consuming.
P.S. It takes 3 weeks to get a High Caliber Holster, so this


Isn't much of a point. Since it takes 3 weeks to get the holster (more time for customization) and you can get your base unit from eholster.com in 3 days, you'd actually save time by getting one from them. You'd also be getting a customized one.

Not that I don't appreciate the wordplay, but belittling other people's chosen methods because they've found them to suit their personal needs more than a product you've designed seems rather childish. The fact is that if you need to carry a range of items (I have 3 table routines which I perform 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, etc., - so I need to have quite a bit of stuff) the High Caliber Holster by itself doesn't fit the bill.

If you've narrowed your scope to the use of so very few items, you are content to pay the $300 price tag, and you are willing to wait 3 weeks for it to arrive then I'm sure the High Caliber Holster is an excellent product to suit your needs.

Lou,

Here is what I can offer you on the subject. I do stand behind my craftsmanship 100%. If any part of the holster becomes damaged due to a defect in manufacturing I will absolutely fix it no questions asked. Even if you damage the holster, I will do my best to fix it for you. As far as a guarantee that you will be happy, I can't promise that. But if you feel that you have some special needs and the holster might not work for you, let me know so we can discuss your concerns. If you go ahead and purchase a holster and it doesn't work for you, I will be happy to to take it back in brand new condition within a reasonable time period. (Please drop me an email, or call me at the number in this thread and we can discuss specifics about this) I can't expect that every single person will love the holster. If you decide it's really not for you, I will take it back. If you ask anyone who has purchased any of my products about their experience, I expect they will tell you that I do anything I can to make you happy. I want you to be happy, that is very important to me. The last thing I want to do is sell holsters to people who don't like them! As I have said before, I am always available to talk. So, pick up the phone or drop me an email and I will gladly take care of you.

I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have already. There is a thread for the HCM holster here. If anyone wants to direct any questions to me there, I will happily share my thoughts with you. Here is the link...
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......3&20

Again, best of luck for those wishing to build their own holsters. I admire your ambitiousness. I was in the same boat years ago while making my first holster. Everything was hand stitched, it probably took me over 100 hours to make the first holster. It was one difficult learning process. So I know how you feel! Good luck, I hope it works out well for you all!


Joel Broock
High Caliber Magic


EDIT:
dbaker_creator,
I didn't see your post before I put mine up. I sincerely wish you the best with your efforts. And I didn't intend to belittle you at all.

Just so you know, I do make everything from scratch. I don't know where you get your information about my work, but it's incorrect. I invite anyone to come to my shop and see the production process. So please don't go telling people that I string existing pouches together to make the HCM holsters, because it is not even the slightest bit true. I don't think I have said anything here that should have offended you in the way you obviously are. I think sometimes our words come out wrong on the forums because you can't see the person talking or hear the tone in their voice. Please, take down my phone number. (818)312-2736 Give me a call tomorrow and I will help with your holster design any way I can. Write down any and all questions that will help you with your project and I'll gladly chat with you about it. I enjoy seeing people succeed, not fail. So call me tomorrow and let me know how I can help you, then you can spread your knowledge here and help others.

Regards,
Joel

Joel,

I am aware that you make your products from scratch and said nothing to suggest that you didn't. I get my information about your work from your site and from other posts you've made on this site.

I never said that you string existing pouches together to make the HCM holster. Re-read. My statement said that when making a custom holster in the manner I have suggested, you (referring to humanity in general) can use pouches and holders that you already have to make the customized one - as opposed to buying the pouches and holders made by the site that sells the base holster straps.

Apparently you've taken this thread as an attack on your product, or you wouldn't have attacked the concept so quickly or so vigorously. I assure you that it was not meant to be so. From my perspective (and that of many other magicians), $300 is simply too much to pay for a prop holder. I assumed that persons who would buy the HCM holster would not be deterred by my suggestions, and that persons who wouldn't buy the HCM holster anyway (due to the price) are still worthy of having a good solid prop system.

I'm not offended by your comments, since I neither gain nor lose anything if people utilize my suggestions or not. What bothers me is the simple fact that you twisted my statements in every post, or simply put words in my mouth. Though to be fair, the snooty way you promote your product (as though it where THE STATUS SYMBOL) is fairly annoying.

Thank you for your "offer", but I require no assistance. As I've stated already, I've already converted my pouches and have used the system several times. Successfully I might add.

Prior to your hijacking of the thread for an advertising slot, I was "spreading my knowledge" just fine thank you.

I just received my HCM holster rig. I opted for the more economical and slimmer "Ricochet" model at a more palatable cost of $175.

For that price, I couldn't afford to even begin to make it myself. Adding straps and velcro with glue to a nylon base model might work for a prototype not intended for heavy use, but my time is too valuable to spend experimenting with designs trying to come up with something when what I want is already out there. It would make a fun craft project if I had the time. I used to love doing that stuff, but sadly I don't have the time anymore.

This is a magnificent piece of work on a par with other high end leather workers who craft magic accessories. It sets far enough back at the sides that it's totally invisible under my coat even with it unbuttoned. It's a perfect match for Frank's "Cellini" pouch and I can easily see the pair working well together if the occasion arises. Now that I'm visiting the Magic Castle more often due to some conveniently located business trips, if anyone sees me there I'd be happy to show off my new tool. I doubt that I'll ever be there without it. My entire "con man" collection fits nicely. Fast and Loose chain, poker chips, School for Scoundrels shells, two decks of cards, and a set of half dollars all fit nicely where before my coat pockets bulged noticably under the weight. I won't work everything from the holster itself, but all I have to do is don the preloaded rig, drop a few chips and maybe the shells in a pants pocket and I'm ready to go.

Thank you Joel for your prompt turnaround time and personal attention. I appreciate it, and I'll appreciate your attention to detail every time I use it.

Hello Joel:First let me say that I think you have been both benevolent and informative with you comments about your product.

I am in the process working up a design that will fit my personal needs.When it is ready I will contact you,and we can discuss it further.

Due to the fact that I get many repeat guests at my venues,I do carry more props/materials then average to keep things fresh for them.

I really like the idea of having almost everything organized in the holster,so that before and after a gig it will be a simple matter of holster on-holster off.

Even though I am a craft minded person,and enjoy making things,I do not think I would be able to come close to matching the apparent fine quality of your holsters.I look at this as an investment.

Best regards.
Rich

Joel,
Thanks very much for the reply. It's what I wanted to hear regarding the guarantee. I'm up to my eyeballs in other things so I'll look into it after the first of the year.
Lou

Dbaker_creator,

I didn't intend to twist your words. I apologize for accusing you of any wrong. The way you wrote...



It just seemed like you meant something else. I hope we can all have a laugh about it, simple miscommunication. That's precisely why I don't like posting too much online. It's sometimes very difficult to understand a person's tone from behind a computer screen.

Just to clarify, I don't feel threatened by this thread either. To be honest, I am flattered that you are inspired enough from my work to create something of your own. That is a compliment in my eyes, not an attack.

I offered to speak with you to show that I only wanted a friendly relationship. I put my guard all the way down by offering to help you in any way I could. I simply wanted to speak with you, so you could understand my integrity is genuine.

The offer still stands, I will welcome you any time. I will even give you some of my pouch templates to use with your holster.

As I said in my first post, "I wish you the best on this endeavor" And I do mean it.


Your friend,
Joel Broock

Let me address the products being discussed.

There is a significant difference between ad hoc modularization and purpose build products. Or even purpose built modular products for that matter. I've worked in two fields where this matters: law enforcement and the military.

As one might appreciate, the kit we carry around our belt as police officers are all, and I mean all, purpose built. You can't afford to carry an ASP in a magazine case. Some are certainly interchangeable or accommodate different items, but I really couldn't carry a Glock in a holster designed to retain security for a HK. Likewise, as a solider when I put a vest on, I have pouches that specifically are designed for my magazines, for knives, for my 9mm, for quick cuffs, for my night vision goggles, and the list goes on. Again, some are interchangeable, but most are not. Finally, I both climb and parachute, and all of the ballistic nylon is used for specific purposes; I'd never consider using other products made for other industries as cross over items to save a few bucks here and there.

Like many professionals, I demand the highest quality I can find. And that is why HCH is firmly placed as the leader in this specific aspect of the industry.

When you take products that are purpose built for an entirely different reason, you rarely get the results you are looking for. Yes, you will certainly save some money, which often is one's main objective. However, the results can be and often are lacking when you follow that line of reasoning.

You suggest using the e-Zio shoulder harness case system. It too is purpose built, but for electronics. Specifically, PDAs, cell phones, and MP3 players. But, in fairness, could be used as a base system, as you put out if you are competent enough to create the right rigging. But to truly make it modular as you suggest, you'd need pouches that fit the objects, items, and materials you use as a performer. Obviously, this is where expertise and time come into play and plays havoc with the idea of "saving money" in many cases.

If you look around online for cases made of ballistic nylon, which I happen to like over leather too, you'll find there are a ton to chose from. I personally have some 35 or more different kinds suited for specific purposes in my work unrelated to magic (see above). And none of them are "inexpensive" as suggested. So I have difficulty believing that you'll save a bunch of money monkey-ing around with multiple platforms trying to find the perfect fit when you could just employ a professional and be assured you'll get the right set up.

I'd welcome a list of examples with dimensions and uses as converted to magic specifically along with illustrations as to how they will hang while wearing them. Because that is a big part of it. If your privately designed holster creates obvious bulges, then this modular thinking is greatly flawed. The whole idea is to have quick and easy access to the items you need without bringing heat to the moment. Hence the streamlined design of the holsters hand crafted by Joel.

You say it is less than 20% cheaper than HCH. Okay, what exactly does "less than" 20% mean. Does that mean 19% cheaper? 10% cheaper?

Even the "Preconfigured" e-Zio holsters are $99 on sale and it only comes with two BULKY cases. And funny enough, that's the leather ones. The nylon provides a whopping saving of, oh, $12.00. That's a lot of Big Macs though. So weigh the options.

And everything is expendable; that's life. Nothing lasts forever. Nylon does last more than leather for the most part, yes. But it all has to do with the way you care for your investments, and after all, if you're a pro (hence the status symbol, I guess) who gets PAID for REAL gigs, $300 is a REASONABLE expenditure that can be written off on your taxes as a legitimate business expense. This is even more so when you realize that an enormous amount of care, detail, and effort goes into each HCM holster; these are hand crafted, not churned out in a factory in China employing slave labor. And for me, that whole buying USA made matters.

Frankly, the modular concept is a great idea and I personally think Joel should hop on that and make purpose built modular items and charge the SAME high prices that police stores do. Even though your modular idea has some merits, I just doubt the veracity of the implied simplicity and benefit over working with someone like Joel (or any other professional manufacturer out there) who can help you get the exact product you need. But more so, I just don't think you have to be rude to disagree.

Best,

James

I just heard about the $300 holster today. I love the idea and hope to get one. But since I have 18 kids (ok, not really that many) building my own holster for the time being would work out best...for now.

The other issue is the $300 holster be able to hold balloons. Instead of close up magic I perform birthday parties.

Where can a person purchase a base holster? A gun shop?

Good topic. I love items like the holster that will make life a bit easier.

James,

I'm speechless. It's all been said!



Rock_Slatestone,

If you are going to make your own holster, it's just a matter of finding or making the right pouch to hold your balloons. I assume you might even already have a pouch that holds balloons. In that case, you would just need to add it on to the holster you are making.

If you buy a holster from us, you would need to send me however many balloons you want to carry and I'll make sure they fit. Don't forget, we also have the Ricochet, it's built on the same platform as the Original holster, and only costs $175.

When you say "base holster", do you mean the straps? Because E-Zio seems to be the place for that. Or you can buy HCM straps for the same price from us.

Joel Broock
High Caliber Magic

I forgot to mention... If you meant holster base, as in the part that hangs from the straps, I don't think you will find that in a gun shop. For the most part, the actual gun holster is the "base" that hangs directly off the straps. Plus, as James mentioned tactical equipment is very expensive anyway. You might be better off going with the e-Zio holster for that.

Joel

Hiya Gang,

Just to chime in...

My Testimonial

While I encourage creating and experimenting as much as anyone, I also appreciate the talent that is found in others. In other words, I'm not going to take time out my crazy schedule to make something if there's already a perfect solution out there. Who can put a price on your time? For me, it's invaluable. Just like my HCM.

Cheerio,

jamie

I'm all for supporting the fine work of people such as HCM but I'm just getting back into magic after a short twenty year break and now I have a family to feed. So sometimes taking the extra time to build something I could use is the only option.

Now once I am working a solid part-time schedule again, the magic bizness can help fund the purchasing of the better product. Right now, when I read of a holster to house your tricks I feel like I'm a kid in a candy store.

Steven, you sir are the consumer I posted this for.

Wants: Quality, Functionality, Customization, and Economical Pricing

You personally will like this because you can replace any parts that your kids might happen to break (it's inevitible - let's face it)!

Why not save yourself the $250 and spend the 30 minutes it'll take you to get yourself set-up? $250 goes a long way on a trip to Costco.

There's paying for quality - then there's being a sucker.

Being a sucker? Where does sucker come into the equation?
He's a sucker if he does what? Buy a holster?

If so, are people suckers if they buy illusions instead of making their own?

Buying a BMW for the "status", when a Honda will get you there just as well - that's where the "sucker" comes in.

Buying an illusion instead of building one is a bit different. An illusion you build youself may not function as well as a professionally machined and produced gimmick.

Examples:
If you buy a scotch and soda set you'll get a well made functioning gimmick. If you tried to make one yourself, you'd probably not get a functioning result.
On the other hand, look at the chop-cup. Almost any steel cup will serve the purpose, though some may be prettier than others.

On another note: if you create your own illusions and build them yourself, you get an effect that does exactly what you want it to do - the way you want it to do it. You know the ins ans outs, and can customize the effect to your desires.

I'm not saying that purchasing something ready made makes you a sucker, but purchasing something that you can make yourself for less does.

~Sigh~,

I don't really have time for this but here I go anyway...

Despite your PM (which I thought a bit odd), I'm going to assume that you're trying to be helpful, by trying to point out something that you think is cool and that other people might like. Your intentions have gone awry for a number of reasons, however:

1) You're basically saying that a product that many people have bought, and are happy with, isn't "worth" it. Do you think anyone who owns it is going to look at what you've written and feel bad about their purchase? If someone is saying good about something, always let them say it. It's the people that are saying bad that I'm always wary of.

2) You've implied, whether you've meant to or not, that people are defending their purchase as a status symbol as opposed to it being simply a fantastic product. Again, you're off to a bad start here because people who do work as magicians don't like being typecast, myself included.

and

3) I don't think you've grasped the concept that people like nice things. Believe it or not, people prefer a RNT2 chop cup over a generic one and people prefer BMW's over Hondas. When you start criticizing people for the things they like, odds are you're not going to convert them but just make them not like you. I always try to appreciate people's opinions.

So, in retrospect, I think that it might do you well to consider when posting in the future; ask yourself:

A) Why am I posting this suggestion?
(Is it because I want to save people money, because I want people to know that I've seen this cool thing, etc.)

B) Are people being responsive to my post?
(And, if not, why? Is it my wording or the content itself?)

C) Have I unnecessarily criticized someone or something that didn't need to be or deserve to be?
(Try and take some time to research people's reputation. The ones with good reps are usually well deserved.)

and,

D) Who am I helping?

This last one is the toughest because we all want to think that we're helping someone when we post here but, a lot of the times, the only people we're helping is ourselves and our ego. So take a minute, think about it, and then do your best to try and carry out the greater good. Sometimes it's harder than it looks...

My 3 cents,

jdg

How did this turn from a guy suggesting a nice craft project for those who like doing so, into a pimp the HCH holster?

It might be because in his first post he compared his craft project directly with the holster.

I'm not a holster user but calling people suckers because they buy it as opposed to putting together the craft project is ridiculous for many reasons that I just don't have the time to write about.

1: As I told Joel earlier, I don't think that this thread will stop anyone who is going to buy a HCM holster, but it will provide an alternative to those who wheren't going to buy one anyway.

Many people will buy the HCM holster simply because it looks cool, or because of the "made for working pros" (eqated to "it's a status symbol") marketting. These fellows aren't going to suffer from buyer's remorse from reading this thread.
However:
$300 is a lot of money especially if you have other expenses, and it becomes even more expensive if you factor in the fact that it may not suit your needs (either now or in the future when your needs may change).

2:
2A: I don't expect people to "defend their purchase". As I said already, the thread was never intended to deter potential buyers (or current owners) from buying the HCM holster. From what I see in the marketting, I assumed Joel's marketting base would not be effected.

2B: As far as the "typecasting", I calls 'em as I sees 'em. Thus far, all the testimonials have been essentially the same; and all of them stress "looks nice", "came assembled", "holds stuff" (with the exception of Dave V, who at least said that the holster worked well for him*, and gave mention to instances).

* Dave is the only person to bother to mention the functionality of the HCM holster, thus making his the only relevant post thus far, since functionality is one of the points we're discussing.

3A: Consider why they "like" those things, Jamie. In fact, consider why those things are though to be "nice". It's all in the marketting and has nothing to do with the product.
BMW tells people that their cars are a symbol of status and wealth, BMWs are also famous for having engine trouble and oil leaks. They are more expensive that Hondas but don't serve the purpose of thier existence (transportation) any better.
The RNT2 chop cup is pretty, but functions no better than a steel mouthwash cup I bought at Mervyns. The only difference is the 'pretty' and the 'price'. A little chrome paint equalizes the former.

You're a magician, you should be able to see through smoke and mirrors marketting.

3B:I couldn't care less if people like me or not. I don't know you, I have no reason to care what your opinion of me is. This world would be a better place if people stopped trying to be liked and started being real.

Retrospect:
A: As I've said before, this isn't MY idea; the system has existed for may years. I have no stock in wether the product is successful or not - therefor, what alterior motives could I have?

B:It's not a personal ad Jamie.

C:
1. Researching the HCM holster is what brought me to the one I'm using.
2. It would logically follow that the products would be compared (both are prop holding, shoulder holsters). Wether I made the comparison or not, it would be made.
3. Why post at all if your statement is "Here's an alternative, but don't bother with it, it's not pretty enough." If you are going to post about a product similar to an existing one, there's no point unless you compare it to the other.

D:
1. Who are you helping Jamie? Your post is partially a plug for HCM and partially a self-serving brag fest (i.e. I am a working pro, whos time is far to valuable to spend making anything, so buy this).
2. Where is your priority in the "greater good" arena? WHO'S good are you personally serving?



Final thoughts:

1: It's all about marketting. If eholster.com marketted their products to magicians specfically we would all have an e-zio already and wouldn't be having tis discussion. I'm sure someone would have discovered them long before I did (had they thought to widen the Google search).

2: To me, function and cost matter most; and since the item is never meant to be seen, why care how it looks? If an inexpensive item can get the job done, why not use it? For that matter, why buy pre-made when you can customize? Your show may be different in a month, why deny yourself the adaptability to change if/when it does?

3: When something does need to be "pretty", I'll use something pretty. As I alluded to before, I bought a steel mouthwash cup at Mervyn's and used some chrome paint to make it "prettier" (a chop-cup is visible when in use, so it should look decent). Looks like high polish chrome, costs a total of $12.00.

4: I hope everyone here realizes that most "magic items" can be purchased on the open market for a lot less. Heck, you can make shimmed coins for next to nothing (all it takes it a little forethought and a trip to Home Depot).

5: In the Bill in Kiwi video, Carl Coutier introduces a holder of giant coins which he made from a coat hanger and duct tape. I have personally tried several Giant Coin delivery systems, and have found nothing that functions better than his suggestion. It's the ugliest thing in my prop box, but it never fails in the show.
Note: The coin holder stays behind your back and under your jacket, so who cares how it looks?

6: In my experience, "fantastic products" defend themselves, and don't need their buyers to do it for them. I hear magicians criticize thumbtips all the time (too well known, too risky, etc.), but they always come around eventually.

7: If people don't buy the HCM holster for the purpose of this imagined "status", the product is truely superior, and magicians are immune to marketting ploys (as you seem to suggest) then nothing said here matters.

8: The superior product will be the one people buy, but people will define "superior" on their own terms. If you define "superior" by appearance, that's fine - I've got a wall mirror with an ornate gold backing to sell you.

Final thought: People like me (who make things inexpensively from household items) make a lot of money off of other people (who buy pretty things made from household items at exhorbitent prices).

Posted: Oct 8, 2007 1:09pm
Quote:


On 2007-10-08 06:55, Joey Stalin wrote:
How did this turn from a guy suggesting a nice craft project for those who like doing so, into a pimp the HCH holster?


My sentiments exactly.

Posted: Oct 8, 2007 1:25pm
Quote:


On 2007-10-08 10:58, Frank Starsini wrote:
It might be because in his first post he compared his craft project directly with the holster.

I'm not a holster user but calling people suckers because they buy it as opposed to putting together the craft project is ridiculous for many reasons that I just don't have the time to write about.



Actually Frank, I thought you of all people would agree with me. theambitiouscard.com sells well-made/hand-made items for what I would consider reasonable prices.

1: Your products are meant to be visible when in use, so they NEED to be nice looking.

2: Your products are adaptable. One guy might use a pocket to hold a deck, another might use the same pocket for rope.

3: Your items are built with magicians in mind, and there are no "open market" substitutes that can touch the level of quality without adding extra bulk (i.e. Maybe I don't want a leather fanny pack, just the pouch).

4: Frankly, if I could make one myself, I would; but I don't have the skill to make a nice-looking leather close-up pouch, you do. If I want one, I need to buy it from you. Hence, your products are unique and serve a purpose in the magic community.

Frank pairs a skill he has (leather work) with easily obtained materials (leather) and makes something useful. You can buy all the leather you want, but without the skill you don't get the pouches. You are paying for the leather to become a pouch, therefore, what you are
What you pay Frank for is his skill (because you can get the leather yourself