|
|
Go to page 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] | ||||||||||
Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
I've just opened up a discussion on 'Ethics in Magic' on our blog here:
http://magicunlimited.typepad.com/magic_......gic.html If you get a chance to take a look at it I'd love to get as much feedback as possible. I hope, at some stage, to use this information as the basis for an article.
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
|||||||||
61magic Special user Sacramento California 775 Posts |
Tim, been to your lectures, loved each one...
There has been a ton of discussion on ethics especially in the Grand Illusion section. I have posted questions to the Café hoping to gain some idea of a consenis on the issue. I find some members are quick to brand someone with the "Rip Off" label, sort of a scarlet letter thing. I've debated some of the claims based on personal knowledge and experience gained from 35 years in magic. I would be happy to give you my two cents worth. Joe
Professor J. P. Fawkes
|
|||||||||
Noel M Loyal user San Rafael. CA 208 Posts |
I wish we could somehow define ethical behavior. Is it just avoiding doing something that causes harm, or is it conduct that should be avoided whether it causes harm or not?
|
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ethics? A laughable concept here really.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Tom Fenton Inner circle Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish) 1477 Posts |
Dannydoyle, you don't really mean that do you?
Yes, there are unethical people here but there are also those with ethics too, don't you think? I was once told that ethics are what you do when nobody is looking. Tom
"But there isn't a door"
|
|||||||||
Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
Danny, just because you see a lack of ethics displayed around you, it doesn't mean the quest should be abandoned does it?
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
|||||||||
JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
I can answer about half of your questions at once. Lying is unethical.
Beyond that there are a few questions you have asked which are subject to preference, and some of them are judged more by the motive than the action. The reason I feel strongly what magic clubs do in having a library is ethical, as long as the club preaches the ethics. It isn't unethical to see something you don't own the source material for, it's unethical to use it. Club libraries are a superb place to test drive source materials before purchase to decide their actual worth to you. If you haven't bought the source material and that source material isn't public domain, then do not use it's contents. Personally I am pretty flexible on the subject of materials that are no longer available. You really should ask yourself how hard you tried to find it, though. If you find an effect that works better than the original, then it's pretty clear they aren't the same trick, now are they. Routines are a tough subject. Many magicians get prickly more easily than they should, and many take more liberties than they should. Best advise, err on the side of caution. This is a good time to point out that ethics, unlike laws, are enforced informally and mostly from within. Do the right thing. Not right by you, but right by others. If you create something and see someone else doing it, take a moment to consider that their is nothing new under the sun. If you reached your creation through a logical progression, it is quite possible that they did as well. On the subject of business, and magic is a business, the ethics of business have been pretty well established, but I will make a pass. Charge more for more work. The same show, for a larger audience is not the same show. If you use an event planner, then whatever you and that planner agree on, is what you should do, but the standard is that their commission comes from the client, not you. It is completely fair to give a good event planner a lower rate if they book you often. Should an opportunity, that can not be passed, come up, then you speak to your client. You appeal to their better nature and say that you will replace yourself with someone of equal or better quality than yourself, but only if they agree. Most often, however, you fill the bookings you have made. If an agent asks you to hold a date, but without a contact, then that agent has what we call "right of first refusal". If someone else asks for that date, you call the agent who has it held and tell them someone is asking for that time slot, and you need a confirmed answer. If your agent doesn't know the rules surrounding "right of first refusal" it is ethical to get new agents. It is not considered ethical to self book with a client you were first booked for through an agent. Follow the chain of command. Your agent is, and should continue to be, your contact with that client. (personally, I prefer someone else do the leg work anyway). I don't know a great deal about agents, as we don't really use them here in Houston, we use event planners. Neither the artist nor the event planner have any exclusivity rights or responsibilities to each other. They have other acts, and I have other event planners. They book the people they feel are best for the events they have at hand based on any number of factors, and I have to tell you, price is a pretty small one. Cheap magicians get the cheap jobs and great magicians get the great jobs. You charge what you are worth and what you can get. A side note, if a client tracks me down before they track down the agent they booked me through, something is very wrong, particularly since I have a list of agents, with contact info on my site and I'm not personally listed. Inter Magician relations, are a funny subject. We, as magicians succeed and fail as one. If a magician looks bad, we all look bad. If a magician looks good we all look good. If you "bag" another magician, you are "bagging" yourself, and me by the way. There are a few big names I prefer to dis associate from for ethical reasons, but I don't flat out badmouth them. I say that I disagree with some of their choices and leave it at that. It is OK to teach any effect that the student in question has the source material for or is public domain, provided the teacher in question has good reason to believe that the student will perform it well and understands the rules regarding the dispersal of the mechanics and workings of effects in the magic world. Best to not make a habit of it, but there will be times..... |
|||||||||
C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Tom, Danny is spot on.
Define ethics as a whole... YOU CAN'T! It is impossible because it is subjective. you can only define it for yourself. To say something is unethical, as a general blanket statement is naive at best. there are many here who don't share your moral values, but that doesn't make them any less right or wrong than you. Ethics and Morals are a matter of opinion... nothing more! and you have, as a matter of opinion, "NO" right calling another persons ethics into question. C. |
|||||||||
Tom Fenton Inner circle Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish) 1477 Posts |
C.
Perhaps I misunderstood Danny's post. I apologise, it was never my intent to call anyone's ethics or morals into question. I should have made it clear that I was talking about myself and I should have left out the "there are unethical people here" part of my post. Please forgive any unintentional implication. I agree that you cannot define ethics, it is entirely up to the individual. Tom
"But there isn't a door"
|
|||||||||
C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Tom, no worries! the internet has a weird way of not allowing inflictions to be seeing. It is very easy, if you're not careful, to have your post misinterpreted.
|
|||||||||
JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-09 13:51, Tom Fenton wrote: What Danny and C. are saying is that they intend to do as they wish, and you can neither stop them, nor make them feel bad about their actions, and they are probably right. Now back to the subject of ethics. Ethics are mostly culturally dictated, they do, none the less, have a logical formula. People like Danny and C. believe that formula doesn't exist, because they can't see it when they cover their eyes. |
|||||||||
mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts |
Lying is not unethical, it is a sin. Unethical, according to Webster ( yeah, I think that little guy is cute too) being unethical is not conforming to agreed standards of moral conduct, especially within a particular profession. The trouble with this quote is that we don’t have any agreed standards in our industry.
The only agreed standard we have is do not reveal a secret. But this is vague too because selling a trick or writing it in a book is also exposure. And as we know, there is nothing wrong with that. Most of our standards are unwritten. Our art is a hand-me-down skill. One that gets past down to generation to generation. How do we define ethics? Do we have the right to make these standards dogmatic? I think as long as you use common sense and do not make profit off of someone else’s creations without their consent, you’ll be doing fine. Personally, I struggle with it all of the time. I see bits that are good and I’m hesitant to use it. Like I have to wait for some statute of limitations or something to run out. That’s also what I am struggling with on my novel. There is so much good information in our history. If I don’t use it, many in the know will wonder why I left it out. On the other hand, I don’t want to plagiarize anything. Novels do not have a bibliography, so it will have to be implied that I used certain information. I guess I’ll cross that bridge when I am ready to go from the research phase, to the writing phase. Hope we all can come to some sort of agreement, but hey, we are human. It hasn’t happen in over 5000 years of civilization, why now? |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-10 11:31, mtpascoe wrote:...How do we define ethics? Do we have the right to make these standards dogmatic? ... That was pretty much settled by the Ancient Greeks long ago. Morals was also settled by the Romans. Consider a polis of one person who considers all to be outsiders. Imagine asking them about their social conduct and getting a reply that "their ethos does not prevent them from doing 'that which they hold to be wrong' to others as they are outsiders". Would that be a hypocrite? Or just your average person? You do get to choose on that level. You don't usually get to ignore the definitions of words or re-define them though. I hope that a fair amount of what others have posted was intended as very dry satirical humor in the vein of Swift's essays.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Quote:
People like Danny and C. believe that formula doesn't exist, because they can't see it when they cover their eyes. Just when I thought you couldn't be anymore ignorant than you already are, you surprise me. That's about as ignorant a reply as you can get. |
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-09 13:19, C. Loubard wrote: Ethics are the rules of behavior a group agrees upon for its own well-being. People that refuse to accept those rules are outcast from the group. Ethics in magic is not opinion, it is the general accepted rules of polite and respectful behavior among magicians. We have many such rules. If you didn't learn them from your mentor in magic, then you are not very socially-acceptable in serious magic circles. If you don't accept those standards, then I would not consider you a trustworthy magician. I would not want to talk inside magic in your company or among your friends and acquaintances. I have a "right" to associate with whomever I want. I choose not to share my secret stuff with magicians who can not be trusted not to steal, copy, publish, or share things said amongst my peers. If anyone of my friends considers you "unethical," you would not be included among our sessions. Of course I have a right to judge you, if you want admittance to my group. If you are like many magicians today, that will not bother you. You will not seek my company or knowledge. You can find whatever you need from the internet and from the groups of magicians that share your lack of magic manners. |
|||||||||
C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Quote:
Ethics are the rules of behavior a group agrees upon for its own well-being. People that refuse to accept those rules are outcast from the group. Ethics in magic is not opinion, it is the general accepted rules of polite and respectful behavior among magicians. So much for magicians ethics. They're exposing stuff by making it available to all non-magicians. that ideology is full of holes as you can very well see. Whit, I am not a magician and in fact can't stand magic. Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead sessioning with magicians. I hold myself to higher standards than many magicians do... I don't write books or make videos! if a hustler shows me something, I never, under any circumstance, share it with anyone, especially not in video or print. of course, much of the hustles I know are not in video or print and I will take what I know to the grave. Whit, I am sure you have much to offer, but I assure you I will never go to learn magic from you. |
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I was not directing those comments at you specifically, C. I was talking to any magician who did not believe in magic ethics.
I am certain that the groups you frequent have their own manners and rules, as you have suggested in your comment. |
|||||||||
C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts |
Whit, I Apologize. I saw that you had quoted me, so automatically took it as a response to me.
|
|||||||||
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I am sorry, C.
I sometimes get in the bad habit of using "you" or "I" when I am writing informally and hurriedly, instead of "one" or "person." I intend for things I am saying to be for everyone, and not directed at anyone in particular. I really don't know many people on this forum personally, and have no real knowledge of who does what to whom. I don't mean to be judgmental at all, just stating my opinion of things. I am just trying relate my personal view of things and the way they are or should be. There is a lot of difference between magic and gambling technique. Magic is really meant to be open for the most part. Teaching those who want to learn is not exposure. Magic is both an art and a recreation. That is why we have circles within circles. The inside secrets are kept "among the knowing," but in general, the principles and secrets of magic are open to anyone who is serious in seeking them. I feel things have gotten too open, with the internet, etc., but what can you do? We have to adjust. I don't think secrets are very important, really. There are a few things that matter, but not really many. Magic isn't really about secrets. Maskelyne and Devant wrote "Our Magic" for the general public, and many cried "Foul!" when they did. Magicians screamed 'exposure' and tried to evict Maskelyne and Devant from magic societies. M and D said that all the secrets they exposed were their own creations, and that they broke no confidences in exposing them. Besides which, they felt secrets were unimportant to magic. When someone exposes how some other performer does his stuff, that is the exposure that bothers me. That is bad manners toward the audience. Similar to revealing the ending of a movie to someone who hasn't seen it. I often think that magicians get way too hung up in this whole topic. They would be much better off working on their own stuff than worrying about what others are "doing to magic." I am more concerned when a magician publishes someone else's stuff without permission, or uses stuff in public that they were asked to keep to themselves, or shares information without permission. These are all rude and are violations of confidence. Erdnase felt what he revealed about card technique was either his own or well-known, and that he was not "breaking any confidences" in revealing it. As a gambler, he felt he was in the clear ethically with that. As far as a performance of original or ancient stuff that exposes a method--I think that the artist must decide whether the method is more interesting and entertaining than the effect. If the method is more entertaining than the effect, one should "perform the method." That is something that Penn and Teller have done exceptionally well, and in the process have made magic more popular and respected. Really, public exposure of methods is usually a big flop. Exposures are only really popular when magic is hugely popular, and there are a number of well-known tricks that people are talking about and excited about--like the Sawing a Lady exposure on Camels in the Thirties. I did the Linking Rings the week after it was exposed on the Masked Magician. I asked the audience how many saw the exposure. About two-thirds had. I did the trick. It got the usual great reaction. It fooled people just as well as ever. |
|||||||||
JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-10 15:51, C. Loubard wrote: If I am ignorant of anything. it is of the path that leads you to your beliefs. If I am ignorant of that, it is because you have failed to impart that information in a clear manner. I'm not exceptionally concerned about this particular ignorance as you have made it quite clear you are more interested in telling people they are incorrect, than actually presenting useful constructive information. Why am I the only person in this thread who has actually addressed the original request? I would love to hear thoughts on the actual ethical guidelines I have presented. Lying is both unethical and a sin. Before you say "magicians do nothing but lie", there is a big difference between telling a client you can't perform because you threw your back out, so you can take another contract and not telling an audience how you moved that card from the center of the deck to the top, and if you don't know that difference, seek counseling. |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Ethics questions - your help needed (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.09 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |