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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
As I said, impossible to enforce, legally, and if you want people to come around to your way of thinking, you may be hurting your cause more than helping it by speaking of imposing legal imperatives on Performing Artists and speaking of duties when it comes to personal ethical and moral boundaries.
Those are the sorts of discussions that never go anywhere when it comes to the subject of disclaimers. There are less alienating ways to make the point that you want to make, I think. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Entity:
Sorry, but legal enforcement is not "impossible," as you put it. Enforcement, if there be a need, would come after the fact. The failure to disclaim could give rise to civil liability should an audience member claim injury by the performance. I don't think, as a practical matter, that one could obtain a mandatory injunction before the fact, requiring that a certain performer give a disclaimer, unless an extraordinary showing could be made (I won't get into all the grounds theoretically necessary for such a showing). However, if enough performers were successfully sued for their failure to disclaim and concomitant injury upon an audience member, I predict you'd see other performers start giving disclaimers sufficient to cover their performances, and also increase their insurance policies. Arnon |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
So let me understand... You're suggesting that Performance Artists be legally obliged to word their performances in a specific way, or they might be subject to prosecution?
It will never happen, Arnon, much as lawyers might wish it were so. It may be theoretically feasible, but in reality it will never happen. Nor should it. The courts are clogged enough as it is, with far more important issues than this. Do you know of even one such case where the Mentalist has been successfully prosecuted or sued? - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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lumberjohn Special user Memphis, TN 626 Posts |
Entity:
Do you think an adequate disclaimer would be to simply say "Hello ladies and gentlemen. Tonight, I will lie and mislead you at every turn. You cannot trust anything I say or do. Do not believe any of it."? And then go ahead with your ESP demonstrations, metal bending, etc.? Or do you believe the mentalist should specifically address the abilities he is suggesting that he possesses? |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
I think that each Performer must decide which disclaimer would suit himself and his performance best. David Hoy used a disclaimer much like what you suggest at times.
I think that a good disclaimer should be direct, brief, entertaining and still allow room for the mysteries to follow. It shouldn't be just "adequate", but should add to the performance. What you suggest might not be conducive to mystery, and I personally don't find it very entertaining, but perhaps in the right context and with the right performer, it could be made to work. - entity Posted: Oct 8, 2007 10:22pm Quote: On 2007-10-08 19:00, entity wrote: Do you know of even one such case where the Mentalist has been successfully prosecuted or sued? - entity I've thought of an answer to my own question: Geller. I believe that Geller was prosecuted in Israel for making bogus claims. Am I correct in that belief, all you Israeli folks out there? - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Entity:
You are correct that Geller lost a civil suit for a refund of the purchase price of admission. Big deal! The only reason it wasn't for more was that the damages were only the price of the ticket, and I believe the case was based on a breach of contract theory. I read the actual opinion months ago, so I cannot give you a citation off the top of my head. Entity, I never said, nor even intimated, that there could be criminal liability for failing to make an adequate disclaimer. Let's not get ridiculous now. In fact, my opinion is to the contrary, unless some prosecutor interpreted some strange or ancient criminal statute "still on the books" to criminally sanction such an omission - highly improbable, to my mind. The area in which I have been consulted is fortune telling. There are still obsolete statutes or ordinances "on the books" (never repealed) which could have been used against my clients, who were tarot readers, owners of a Wicca store, owners of an 800 number for magical spells, etc. They were threatened with prosecution, and I took care of the situations. Please do not misinterpret my words, nor misjudge my personality. I am not the run-of-the-mill conservative lawyer who is looking to squelch artistic expression - ON THE CONTRARY! I myself am a performance artist (magician) and I defend magicians and other types of mystery performers. Please don't miscategorize me. I am friend and defender, not foe and prosecutor! Arnon P.S. As a result of the TV show called "The Successor," which starred Geller in Israel, it was reported that a Haifa elementary school student passed out trying to emulate a pulse-stopping contestant on the show. There was a real situation which could have given rise to a civil lawsuit, depending on the details. I wonder what steps, if any, NBC will take in its US version called "Phenomenon," in order to prevent any potential civil liability. My understanding from the auditions is that the American show will not emphasize that the performances are "real" demonstrations of psychic powers, as perhaps the Israeli show did. |
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ThomasBerger Special user 593 Posts |
Here's the actual wording to the Geller incident:
"5 Jan 1971: Jerusalem Post: LEGERDEMAIN RULED BREACH OF CONTRACT Beersheba The Magistrate's Court here yesterday upheld charges that Uri Geller, the self-proclaimed telepathist, was guilty of breach of contract in that he promised to perform feats of telepathy, parapsychology, hypnotism and telekinesis, while in fact he merely employed sleight-of-hand and stage tricks. Geller was ordered to foot court costs of IL20 and to repay the plaintiff Uri Goldstein, a mechanical engineering student at the University of the Negev the IL7.50 Goldstein had paid for a ticket to one of Geller's performances. The court ruled with the plaintiff that Geller's performance in contrast to his advertised promises-constituted a breach of the contract defined by the purchase of a ticket to the performance." That was in 1971 so he been a lot more careful since, or it's too trivial to bother with. My favorite disclaimer was the bit where Blaine jabbed his chest and pulled his own heart out, falling backwards, presumably dead. Message across the screen-- Don't try this at home! A question-- Would you say that the Disclaimer issue for a mentalist performance is a predominantly a North American thing? I would like to hear from people in the UK and elsewhere about this. I personally use no disclaimer and wouldn't dream of doing so. But that's just me. I would be interested in views from around the world on this. I think it might be culturally significant. Cheers. Tom |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
From my point of view, the disclaimer issue isn't primarily a legal one. It more of a personal choice to have an honest relationship with my audience. I don't imagine that many of those Mentalists who have used disclaimers have done it purely to avoid any sort of legal liability, at least not in modern times.
- entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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bdekolta Inner circle Texas 1636 Posts |
Lumberjohn - what disclaimers have you tried in your performances? What were the results?
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-08 03:36, arnon wrote: I stand corrected! |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
I like Seth's last post about Derren. Entity says that he has an Honest relationship with his audience...Not so with Derren even though he uses a disclaimer. Now how does that work?
Back to the subject. I've heard a rumor that those willing to debunk Phenomenon can call in. Was this reported on another forum?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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lumberjohn Special user Memphis, TN 626 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-08 23:40, bdekolta wrote: In my performances, I do more magic than mentalism, which acts as its own disclaimer. After you've just performed Hippity Hop Rabbits, no one is going to believe your ESP demonstration is for real. At least that has been my experience. I know this isn't ideal, but it is a reality of my performance opportunities. I am putting together a full mentalism routine, however, which is why this topic is of great interest to me. I agree there has been much high level discussion here. It is a very worthwhile issue. |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
The ultimate type of disclaimer was uttered by Rod Serling.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Slim: Derren's very clear disclaimer at the beginning of his show creates an honest relationship with his audience. Read my posts again. What he does after the disclaimer is open season, since he establishes up front that it's all a varied mixture of psychology, magic, misdirection, suggestion and showmanship.
Why is that difficult to understand? Re: Phenomenon... I think that the idea that viewers were invited to call in to debunk the performers came from someone's interpretation of the press release published in Reality TV World: "In addition to its two-hour Halloween broadcast on Wednesday, October 31, NBC will broadcast each of Phenomenon's one-hour episodes live and also implores home viewers to try and debunk the contestants' tricks. "We hope viewers will watch with their friends and talk about and debate what they see, making this a truly interactive television experience," added Plestis." One could infer from this release that "interactive" could mean that the viewers can take part in the show by calling in or sending in videos or emails to debunk the performers. Just a guess as to where the idea came from. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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bdekolta Inner circle Texas 1636 Posts |
Quote:
I am putting together a full mentalism routine, however, which is why this topic is of great interest to me. I agree there has been much high level discussion here. It is a very worthwhile issue. I see where you are coming from. What can be interesting is to actually strive for a presentation that would make whatever disclaimer you want to use fit. Then perform impromptu and casually. It can be very eye opening to learn how people interpret what we do. |
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Chad Sanborn Inner circle my fingers hurt from typing, 2205 Posts |
Actually you are all wrong about the term DEBUNK. Harry Anderson writes about this very thing in this months issue of MUM. It all boils down to a Buncombe County, NC, US Representative. He made a rambling speech one day that had little to do with the topics at hand. The other reps tried to shut him up, and he replied that he was "speaking for Buncombe". Many a jokes were made of this. And the the word Bunkum was born, meaning "any speach designed for show or public applause".
So 'debunk' is to disprove 'bunk'. Chad ps...I do live in Asheville and Harry says Hi! |
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Chad:
Being a tar heel myself, and not inclined to rely on Harry Anderson as a source, I found this: "... it was in the U.S. House of Representatives that "bunkum" was born. Way back in 1820, the House was debating a measure known as the Missouri Compromise, which, as I'm sure we all remember from history class, dealt with the contentious issue of slavery in states joining the Union. Midway through a highly emotional floor debate, a certain Rep. Felix Walker, whose North Carolina district happened to include Buncombe County, rose to speak. And he spoke, and he spoke, and he spoke, and as he spoke it became clear to everyone that what he was saying was totally irrelevant to the matter at hand, but he would not stop and no one (though many tried) could get him to shut up. Finally, with his colleagues almost at the point of strangling him, he declared that his constituents in Buncombe County wished him to speak and he therefore had "a duty to make a speech for Buncombe." Then he started talking again. But his contemporaries had their revenge, and within a few years "buncombe" (later "bunkum") had become, and remains, an enduring synonym for absolute hogwash." http://www.word-detective.com/040503.html :D Arnon P.S. I was born in Greensboro, NC, in Green County. |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Hogwash, nonsense, dishonesty, bunkombe (also spelled bunkum in the dictionary).
- entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-09 10:41, lumberjohn wrote: I am another example of that - whether I'm in a venue that shouts "magic" (as the Magic Castle) or performing in a neutral venue, I perform mostly magic and if asked, identify myself as a "magician." In walkaround gigs especially, I will have only one mentalism set, and use it only after I've performed a magic set for that same group or table. I find that magic is so much more visual and appealing to the eye, that in order to quickly grab attention and be able to cover a room, I must introduce myself with magic first. That's just my performing style and persona, but one advantage is that I never need a disclaimer. :D Arnon |
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John Nesbit Inner circle United States 1421 Posts |
So in essence what is being put forth is that the "term" Debunk, is just a "slang" expression derived from the alteration of the county name of a politician who found disfavor amongst his peers. Those of whom in turn used this slanderous mutation of the English language, to ridicule that person professionally and personally.
It seems to make more sense now knowing why this "misnomer" has been used so frequently over the years in such a mean spirited manner, by those "claiming" to posses a superior intellect, religion, and social status, (etc). Rather than using words and terms more appropriate for a kinder, gentler society. Words like clarify, expose, excoriate. Perhaps this thread should be somewhat "excoriated" of it's often heavy handed, dogmatic, self appointed, "disclaimer" mongers. None of which I'm sure hail from Buncombe County, N.C. (case in point) |
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