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Sealegs
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The point I was trying to make is that irrespective of the quality of the performance on the clip the posters in this thread come across, to me at least, as sumg gits.

Yes I've heard of tough love... it can be very effective but please don't try and kid me or yourself that the comments made on this thread are for the benifit of the act that posted the clip on youtube. They simply reek of smugness and achieve little else. I think the last time I saw something similar was when all the kids at school would gang up on the pathetic weak kid. Made them all, including the ones only marginanlly less weak feel oh so good about themselves. That's the feel this thread had to it... there's an easy target lets join in giving them a good kicking.

Personally I don't care what anyone has to say about this act. I don't know anything about them other than the clip on youtube that started this thread. But just as you all have a right to express yourselves about the youtube posted clip so I choose to expess myself about the posts here in this thread.

Was I being sanctimonious? I hope not I was actually going for patronising. (see it's too easy to be smug)

Neal
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
ClintonMagus
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If this is "tough love", then man, I hope none of my few-and-far-between performances ever show up on YouTube!
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
Kevin Ridgeway
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Most the comments here are not even about the performance. Most of them are about the horrendous props.

Those that choose to do their homework, understand basic magic principles and stay away from knock offs are usually safe.

Kevin
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Christian Illusionist
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Quote:
On 2007-10-07 20:42, Sam Pearce wrote:
Seriously, their cutting in half illusion is just unbelievable.

Also, I love their Origami. I had no idea Wellington built that style, it looks very... different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1W6S5E2D......;search=


But the way, what is that music? Its very original, I've never herd any magician's use it before.


Quote:
On 2007-10-07 22:39, 61magic wrote:
The intro music has been used all over the place. I'm not sure of the title or writer. Anyone else have any idea?


I've been told that the first song used in the first video was created for use by Kirby Van Burch.
We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.
Sam Pearce
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Quote:
On 2007-10-08 16:26, Christian Illusionist wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-07 20:42, Sam Pearce wrote:
Seriously, their cutting in half illusion is just unbelievable.

Also, I love their Origami. I had no idea Wellington built that style, it looks very... different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1W6S5E2D......&search=


But the way, what is that music? Its very original, I've never herd any magician's use it before.


Quote:
On 2007-10-07 22:39, 61magic wrote:
The intro music has been used all over the place. I'm not sure of the title or writer. Anyone else have any idea?


I've been told that the first song used in the first video was created for use by Kirby Van Burch.


The comment about the song was a joke. Obviously a bad one...

Sam
Blair Marshall
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Neal,

Re-read MY post, their video appears on Youtube, on the net, which means they have access to images of the true props. So I don't care where they are from. (Not even metioning the issue of rights here.) Now since they are performing an "Origami" they have had to copy it from somewhere, unless they and Jim came up with the same idea, at the same time! (Now that's sarcasm.) Surely they could have made a better "copy"?

I have seen many illusionists work with props that are built like this. My question was, at least on my posting was, where was thier eye for the design?? As this is a site devoted to Grand Illusion!

I have see Franz's "Cutting in Nine" brought down to 5 boxes with each box looking like it could contain a girl.

We have a local illusionist who puts a suitcase on a base 4' x 4' and about 12" thick, no molding, no highlights, just a big black box, and then produces 1 girl! This was not a kid either, and it was a show in a LARGE theatre! Rand's books are not that expensive, pictures abound on the net of "thin" bases. What the heck was he trying to prove? That his personality could overcome the poor quality level of props he was using. His props were the closest thing to exposure of a principle I have seem in a live magic performance.

And as had been metioned already, most comments here were about their props, not about their ethics, or their perfomance style.

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Sealegs
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It's pleasent to see the tone of the posts has now changed.

Still rightly(IMO)critical but making valid useful specific points and expressing thoughts about a variety of aspects of the performance without needlessly sticking the boot in or being taunting and superior in nature.

Just my opinion,
Neal.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
reynold
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Neal: I just read your PM and thank you. Magicians seems to have pleasure in destroying other performers. I remember the thread for "Any reviews on Hans Klok?"
And everybody trashed him wanting him to fail, Me and a few other defended him. He is not my favorite magician but he has not toured the world and went to Vegas because he has a bad show. Same thing happened in a recent Wyrick thread, it got very ugly.

So, these guys obviously needs to do some research and some homework. but there is no need to mock them and be sarcastic. We all did stupid things when we were beginners. The difference is most of us started at a young age and maybe they just started recently and they are in their right to make mistakes.

Kevin: your analogy for Mr. Neal's signature would be accepted coming from a third grader not by a full grown professional like you. In case you don't get it, let me explain: There is no ONE single golden rule, there are many golden rules to live by. and certainly "treat others as you would like to be treated" is one of the most important of the golden rules.

I miss Tim Drake, it's weird he hasn't posted something yet.

Thanks,
Reynold
Bill Nuvo
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Aw man. I still want to have fun.

I should in all fairness put one of my horrible videos up for critique. Funny thing is....I'll rip myself apart more than anyone here ever could.
The Drake
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Quote:
On 2007-10-08 19:26, reynold wrote:

I miss Tim Drake, it's weird he hasn't posted something yet.

Thanks,
Reynold


Well I am honored that I am missed...OR.. maybe I have too much to say and it seems strange when I don't post???LOL

The Drakes two cents are as follows..

These props are REALLY bad. The performances reflect the props. This is EXACTLY why I rant to beginners to not JUMP into large props hoping it will make them the next Copperfield. As Blair says there are also working performers with years of experience doing the same quality as seen here. We all have seen these guys ruining it for the rest of us, making our entire art look bad. I think that is one reason we are so easily able to jump on the " what a joke" bandwagon. Its easy to forget that these performers might be beginners.

We also forget that the Café is a public forum and that our comments (although true) may be very hurtful to those who are being discussed OR to friends of those being discussed. Lets admit it. As bad as these performances are.. if it were personal friends of ours doing that bad act ( even though we admit it is bad ) and getting laughed at by Café Members we'd be mighty upset.

We've all watched friends perform badly before but instead of laughing at them we offered them some advice on improvement. ( especially if they are learning) I admit I had a good laugh at this act as well but Reynold brought up the point that maybe they are beginners and then I felt bad that I might have jumped the gun on judgment. I'm sure that is the case with many others here. I really wish I could come up with some witty comeback to ease my conscience as to why it was ok for me to laugh at these guys but I can't. Lucky for me I was too busy to post earlier or I might have got caught in a text trap I was later sorry I posted. ( It's happened before...LOL )

The thread.. although meant in good fun has turned mean and I think it should be deleted. We're all better than this thread and it does us no good to have it hang around.

Best,

Tim
reynold
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Finanlly,Tim!! thanks for stopping. I agree with you this thread should be deleted and wish those guys well.

Thanks,
Reynold
Blair Marshall
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"local magic hobbiest" Not sure what is going on with this thread?????

Let's see, I would say we have been kind to these folks. I too have looked at their tapes again.

Ripped off "Origami", ripped off "Kube Zag", performing these on t.v. and we refer to them as obscure hobbiests????????

Seems to me awhile back we were ready to tie anyone to the stake that had anything close to resembling a proprietry effect. Rip their hearts out, and then burn them!!!

What happened Tim??? A little too much Thanksgiving turkey and stuffing? Getting mellow? LOL

Folks know I have never jumped on the "rip-off" bandwagon with folks yelling, but here is a case where we are suddenly making excuses as to why it is permittable to use "rip-offs".

I wonder if the other pros in Portugal feel the same way about these "hobbiests" appearing on local t.v. with this material?? And I am sure trying to get bookings in their areas.

As far as their friends reading our comments, I would have to assume they are magicians, and if they were true friends they would fill these "hobbiests" in on what other magicians and performers are thinking about their on-line video performances. And these same friends should have given them a heads up before they posted videos of them performing rip-offs,......or do they really care??

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!

P.S. Just googled the performer's/illusionist's name and it would seem these videos are all over the place, and it would seem he has also performed in Montreal, Canada. For you guys south of the border that's a litlle town just East of where Tim is! LOL
Wonder if he had any of these great illusions with him?
The Drake
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Quote:
On 2007-10-08 21:24, Blair Marshall wrote:

Ripped off "Origami", ripped off "Kube Zag", performing these on t.v. and we refer to them as obscure hobbiests????????
oprietry effect. Rip their hearts out, and then burn them!!!

What happened Tim??? A little too much Thanksgiving turkey and stuffing? Getting mellow? LOL

Folks know I have never jumped on the "rip-off" bandwagon with folks yelling, but here is a case where we are suddenly making excuses as to why it is permittable to use "rip-offs".


Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!



Hi Blair,

The videos were so bad that I didn't watch them all. I didn't see the ripoff Origami although I see it was mentioned by Sam earlier. (Maybe it was too much turkey over the Canadian Thanksgiving that made me miss it)

Feel free to rip on them for the ripoffs and I'll have a good time with that but my comments were focussed on the poor props and performance and how we knocked them. If the thread had been about ripoffs from the beginning I would have been over it like left over turkey! LOL As mentioned .. SAM did mention it so maybe that should have been the focus instead.

Thanks for he heads up regards the rips. I'll keep a keener eye next time.

Best,

Tim

Update... Just saw the terrible Origami ripoff. It has got to be the "worst of the worst" ripoffs I have ever seen. It makes all the other look good. LOL
reynold
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Mr. Blair: It is one thing of accusing somebody who knowingly has rip-off's and is another to mock and be sarcastic about some guy that we don't know what's the story. YES, he is guilty of rip-off but this can be said without the sarcasm.

Thanks,
Reynolf
The Drake
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Hi Reynold,

Blair's sarcasm comes from having to deal with the same professional working "magic market destroying" clowns that I have to here in Canada so there is little sympathy for them. I think he was most shocked that I'd defend a knockoff like in that video. Of course I had missed it.

My original point was that we should avoid public attacts of a performance or homemade props. (unless those props are ripoffs) If we stick to the fact that its a BAD knockoff and leave it at that then we avoid getting personal regards the performer. I'd say that's the safest bet. LOL

Best,

Tim
reynold
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Tim:
Let's make it a rule.

Thanks,
Reynold
The Drake
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Quote:
On 2007-10-08 22:07, reynold wrote:
Tim:
Let's make it a rule.

Thanks,
Reynold


Ok.. so I'll lighten the mood here a bit. LOL No comment on the performance or performers. I'll leave it at the fact that this ripoff ranks right up there with the bad origami knockoff in the category of worst knockoff ever.

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=zuKXgevq2Dw

Best,

Tim
Blair Marshall
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I believe poorly made, poorly designed, HOMEMADE props, which in many cases expose the illusion, or principle, are WORST than a well-made rip-off where the only way we (the Café "rip-off" squad) seem to be able to tell is by the make of the casters/wheels.

.......Even worst when they are used by a professional in public, or on t.v.

As I indicated earlier, there is no reason for poor design, if you are going to rip-off the effect, the principle, you may as well rip-off the design also. At least you are going to have something that may mystify your audience.

Note again, I have not made any comment on his performance, although now from other videos, he would seem to be personable.

The only time I used sarcasm was when I indicated that I was doing so. All the rest was meant to be my honest opinion. Cruel, heartless, maybe, but then...........

Blair Marshall

P.S. Tim, you missed the Kube Zag also!

P.P.S. As far as homemade, if you are a young performer, then this is where you start, Grant wrote several books on easy to make/build illusions, but once you start making $$$, it's time to invest in your props.
thefifth
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First off, just for the record, if they had not had the terrible ripped off props, I would have never made my previous comments.
But I think you can be too forgiving. I think since it's another fellow magician (albeit a beginner, I hope) some of us maybe to sensitive about the comments that were made.
Had this person been doing this quality of work in any other field (singing, dancing, juggling, etc) the negative comments would have never been questioned. Had this been a person on American Idol hitting a bunch of sour notes, or had tried juggling three balls on America's got Talent and couldn't even do that right, people would not have been so sensitive.
In those situations we rarely say 'aww their just a begginer give them some slack'. I'm not suggesting we should foster mean comments, but come on. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a line where if something is really that bad, it is socially exceptable to laugh. Hell most of television is based on this concept. I think these people crossed that line for three reasons. One, they make the rest of us look bad. Two, they had very baddly ripped of props. And three, they clearly hadn't done their homework. Their act to me is the equivalent of a singer not taking the time to look up the right notes for a song. It's unforgivable even for begginers. Their are enough plans out there for lots of begginner illusions that are better than these.
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reynold
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Well, fifth, I must admit you got a point and a very valid one. But america got talent is a competition and their job is to judge acts. Here at the Café is "magicians helping magicians" not "magicians judging magicians". But still you got a point if they are performing for real world they must get real world opinions.

Thanks,
Reynold
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