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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Jeff Dunham & Achmed the Dead Terrorist (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Skip Way
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On 2007-10-30 12:57, Timothy Drake wrote:
Skip, I agree with your comment but then so again does Michael Richards...Hmmmmm where back to the same old arguement of where the line is again.


Tim, no offense, good friend, but Michael Richards stepped outside the boundaries of comedy structure when he lost control and allowed himself to respond to the hecklers in the crowd with personal and targeted insults that were clearly racist in nature. The Mencia and Chappelle types get away with their humor because the taunts are generalized and recognized as generally accepted stereotypes. If either comedian got down into the faces of certain audience members and singled them out for this "abuse" neither would have a career worth spit. I don't believe that Jeff Dunham's creation is a racial assault as much as it is a caricature of a very common fear. Of course, I never understood removing Speedy Gonzales from the Warner Bros. line-up either. Jeff is simply taking a very real fear and making it easier to face through humor...one of humor many incredible treasures.

Chaplin did it with Hitler, the Three Stooges did it with Mussolini, M*A*S*H did it for a generation swamped by the media and politically manufactures quagmire of Viet Nam. This country needs to throw off the political correctness choke collar and get a hold of reality before we force ourselves into a corner we'll never get out of. America's greatest generations were the product of "in your face" strength and certainty against our enemies and protagonists...not of boot kissing , apologetic leaf munchers begging for international forgiveness. Enough is enough!

Back to Jeff...Average Joe Public is a pretty good barometer of acceptable and unacceptable. Michael Richards - completely unacceptable. Jeff Dunham - a very popular performer and character. Whatever happened to majority rule?
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Leland Stone
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Hey, Tim:

Good point about others helping embattled minorities overcome, like the "Tuskogee" airmen -- and thanks for not snickering about my typo Smile . Coloured persons had a lot of help on the Underground Railroad, with the abolition of slavery, and during the Civil Rights movement. I affirm that there is a moral obligation to help those who are being victimised.

But in battling prejudice, the best weapon upon which to hoist an attacker is their own petard. Can anyone read "A Modest Proposal" without realising that Swift was flipping the bird to the Crown -- and with incredible finesse! Slaves did the same thing in the antebellum South; few before Disney ever thought Br'er Rabbit was just a cute lil' bunny pokin' fun at the mean and powerful Br'er Fox. Here in my own neighbourhood, there's a sports team that protests the use of 'offensive' Indian team names and mascots by calling themselves the Average White Guys (it's hilarious, brilliant satire; their logo is a 50's style white guy in a fedora, smoking a pipe a la "Father Knows Best").

The statistics might be off, but the point isn't the numbers; it's the willingness of the moderate Muslim majority to stand by and do little while their faith and their reputation are hijacked by jihadists. It seems to me that in the House of Islam, the residents are complaining about the neighbours smoking...while ignoring that naughty family members have set their own house on fire.

Leland
Bill Nuvo
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5665003093819070601

This is a 45 minute video documentary made by the guy who did Supersize me. It is a great series (I have the first season DVD). It's called 30 Days.
The Drake
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On 2007-10-30 17:18, Skip Way wrote:
I don't believe that Jeff Dunham's creation is a racial assault as much as it is a caricature of a very common fear. Of course, I never understood removing Speedy Gonzales from the Warner Bros. line-up either. Jeff is simply taking a very real fear and making it easier to face through humor...one of humor many incredible treasures.

Chaplin did it with Hitler, the Three Stooges did it with Mussolini, M*A*S*H did it for a generation swamped by the media and politically manufactures quagmire of Viet Nam.

Back to Jeff...Average Joe Public is a pretty good barometer of acceptable and unacceptable. Michael Richards - completely unacceptable. Jeff Dunham - a very popular performer and character. Whatever happened to majority rule?


Skip...I'm with your for the most part. Humor is indeed a great way to deal with fear. I think the examples you mentioned are good examples of political satire. They made fun of an insane political system. Politics has been a good target for humor since day one. LOL

I'll respectfully disagree on "majority rules" though. Opinions change like the wind. A few short decades ago majority in North America discriminated other groups and we now realize that was wrong. Yes...we moved in the right direction regards Michael Richards but that is because we know better today. Majority 50 years ago would have let him get away with it.

Skip, I find it interesting you are one of the few to say... it is not a stereotype of Muslims. You look at it as mocking fear and to be honest I can now see that as Jeffs intent. Many others have not debated that it was a stereotype but instead defended it's right as a stereotype by pointing out the horrors of a small percentage of the religion.

I'm thinking it comes down to this. Most agree its a stereotype but are not offended by it because of a disgust of the topic it mocks. ( terrorism) My only fear is that it adds to unjust fears of others and helps validate stereotypes that only lead to more misunderstanding and problems between various groups.

Yes... I laughed at the routine. Its funny. I admit that. If it could have been done without the stereotype I would have been happier. The same routine could have been done with he same puppet dressed as the grim reaper without the turban, beard or racial comments and it would have been just as funny. I'm still having trouble with the" Kill the Jews" statement. The audience in the video did as well but Jeff hit them with something else quickly to move on.

Leland. I'd like to address the "Other Muslims should do more" issue with out getting too political. I'm sure many Muslims do indeed do more but it doesn't make CNN when it happens. A local(local to me) group of Muslims recently ran a fundraising event for the local homeless shelter. Another local recently was re-elected to his office as a Member of Canadian Parliment. These guys are doing something but just like Cops. The bad ones make the news way more than the good ones. LOL

I've enjoyed this last bit of the debate as it has been most civil. Thanks to those who kept it civil. We have a difference of opinion on some parts I guess and for now I expect it to stay that way. 10 years ago I'd be on the other side of the fence..in 10 years (or maybe longer) others may be on my side of the fence. Who knows? It's a crazy world.

Best,

Tim
Bill Nuvo
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http://www.videosift.com/video/30-Days-As-A-Muslim-44mins

Here's another link to the video that is clearer.
The Drake
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Bill.. I am speechless. Thanks for that. It makes a lot of things clear that I have known for a long time. The fact that Allah is the same god Christians worship is one I learned a few years ago.

Best,

Tim
The Drake
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Just finished watching this film. It freaky how much it mirrors my own experiences. Sad to say that its been online for 8 months and gotten only 179 views.

I'm curious if others in this thread will watch it and comment.

Best,

Tim
Josh Riel
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I won't watch it. New things and ideas scare me. I prefer the bigoted rut I have developed through years of intolerance and greed.

What did the apathetic guy say to the frighteningly overly concerned guy: I don't know & I don't care!
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
The Drake
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Thanks Josh,

Your sarcasm speaks loudly on this subject. Good Post.

Best,

Tim
MagicSanta
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Here are my comments:
1. He had his shoes checked because of the garb? No, it is required of everyone going through security at airports from what I understand, my wife and I and everyone within sight has had their shoes checked when we fly.

2. First you discuss Arabs now you bring in Pakistanies, they are not Arabs.

3. Only a flaming moron would think all Muslims are terrorist but what other association do they expect the average Westerner to come up with? Should they have responded "Mecca"? I wonder what the average Arab Muslim in Mecca would respond with when asked to come up with their first comment for "American" or "Infidel" as we are so lovingly known.

4. It is common knowledge that Islam is based on the God of Abraham, same is Judism and Christianity. The question of what religion you are in if of those three is who you think the last prophet was.

5. My goodness how sensative, they said "Jewish people and Christians have the Bible....", not true, the Jewish religion uses the Torah, the first five books of the Christian Bible and they do not use the New Testiment.

6. Culture smulture I wouldn't let a stranger stay in the house with my wife either and she wouldn't allow it. You do know that a good Muslim doesn't speak to women right? They are not exactly pro womens rights. My mothers best friend married a Muslim from Iraq, nice guy who was the director of the FDA for the region covering Texas and Oklahoma etc. When their last daughter left to get married he quit speaking to her unless it was to give her instructions for what to do that day. Cat Stevens wouldn't speak to female interviewers and clearly stated a good Muslim doesn't speak to women.

7. Clothing store....the lad is confusing regional and cultural garb with religion. He had on hats common to two different people, one the Eastern Asian community, the other Arab....remember, his hosts are not Arabs by any means.

8. Again with the security at the airport. That is whining and unfounded as he was treated absolutely no differently than anyone else was. My inlaws were flying to NYC and security in San Francisco was doing the regular wand and shoes of for everyone as all airports are suppose to be doing. They also, as is common practice, were conducting a pat down on every sixth person through the gate thingy, regardless of sex, age, religion, anything. If you were sixth, you got a pat down by the appropriate guard. My nephew was picked, he was 17 years old and looks like a normal teen, no one knew he was of Arab ancenstory nor that his name was Arabic. He was sixth, that is all. To this day, a couple years later, my idiot sister in law claims it was purely racism driven. Bull.

9. That Iman is either very liberal or is being nice for the camera. Let's see them talk to a Wahabism (sp) Iman and see how different the responses are.

10. Oh oh...the Iman mentioned Abraham...just like I did....

11. The bachalor party....dude, I use to hit bars every night, Muslims go to bars and hit on chicks and all that...they just don't let it be filmed baby!

12. The showing of the soles of ones feet is cultural, not religious. The Imans name indicates Saudi Arabia, a different culture, by the way, than the hosts. Since they showed the sign about removing shoes and the guest failed to do so it seems to me that it was done intentionally. On another angle though if one moves to anothers culture does the culture being moved to have an obligation to bow to the visitors or does the visitor need to try to understand and respect the host countries culture? I've traveled the world, never has a culture bowed down to American culture but it seems some expect American culture to bow to them.

13. The thing with playing the call to prayer shows what a raving ahole the guy who made this documentary is. I just noticed he is the same moron that made the McDonalds thing....get a real job buddy! Again, let him go to Mecca and put on The Ballad of Big and Rich and see what the people have to say there. Idiot.

14. Oh my...death threats.....the Muslims NEVER EVER would issue a death threat, no siree, they are peace loving people, shame shame shame on those emailers.

15. Now we get the American iman, good guy, far better than the other guy who was oozing with "darn camera! I cannot say what I want!". I do recall the days of the Soviet Union when the spokesman to the US press was a charming and well dressed man in his 50s who spoke fluent American English thanks to his parents being hard core American communist who went to the Soviet Union in the 30s and the guy was raised to be a possitive representative of the USSR. He was a hard core communist and wanted to destroy the West though, interesting guy, he isn't around any longer.

16. Fast forwarded through the slaughter house, I don't do slaughter houses.

17. Hmmmm....I see now the Muslims are denying they should protest the acts of Muslims in the name of Islam.... I can see why that would be, being peace lovin' people and all who never make threats....

18. Hey, why is David wearing that hat but the other 'real Muslims' are not? Me thinks my man David is being forced to live unlike the other guys....shame. Fraud sucks.

19. Those racists scumbag Americans think Muslims would commit acts of terrorism? Impossible! They don't make threats, they don't commit acts of terror! Why next you'll hear Americans claiming those Muslims blow up their own people in battles between sects of Islam! No way, I can't see why anyone would think such a thing. Racist scum, they should all be arrested and put into special camps!

20. Oh oh, seems Dave is being forced to wear foriegn garb while the foriegn types are wearing Western garb.....

21. Timothy whathisname wasn't a Christian....sorry gang.

22. Again, he is in a MUSLIM household not ARAB. What is wrong with you goody goody types? Don'cha know the difference?

23. Of course they have sleeper cells in Dearborn...

24. As for Eric Rudolph I'll say right now he is and extremist and his ilk should be tossed into the ocean and let God save 'em if he choses to. Stupid analogy.

25. David doesn't know what some mosques are used for, he knows what he was told to know and he isn't an expert at anything, sorry Dave, you are still a hillbilly with a hot wife.

26. Cute, David says you can't look at the Muslims as bad folks, which is true, but a large number are and a large number in this country, and Canada, are actively desiring the destruction of Western culture. He said people can't base their opinion on the action of five (five? Idiot...where does he get five?) but he bases his opinion on a thirty day period with selected individuals who revealed to him what they chose to reveal.

27. I'm looking forward to the documentary when a religious Muslim goes and lives with a Christian family and must take part in their religious services and eat what they eat etc.... yeah, like that is gonna happen.

SO what is the point Tim? I don't know the area you live in or how familiar you are with Arabs and Muslims from other countries and those from the US. The people in the documentary pretty much represent how most the Muslims I know are. Just in case you are keeping score here is a link to a place that was next door to where I worked for almost 20 years. I knew many of the people who went to the place and many were from Europe and Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia). So before you start to gear up for a challenge keep in mind that was the community I worked in and I am very familiar with the Arab culture due to the inlaws and I blew 'em up when I was in the service. Do keep in mind that the Muslim people, and other Arabs and Easterners, are very nice people and are a threat to no one. Unfortunately they are associated with a very large group of Muslims who are a very real threat. What combines them is their general dislike of do gooders thinking they need their protection.

http://www.granadaschool.org/
The Drake
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On 2007-10-30 23:24, MagicSanta wrote:


SO what is the point Tim? I don't know the area you live in or how familiar you are with Arabs and Muslims from other countries and those from the US. The people in the documentary pretty much represent how most the Muslims I know are. So before you start to gear up for a challenge.....



Magic Santa. I'm not getting geared up for a challenge . I'm happy you watched it. Thanks for taking the time. The Muslims in that film represent the ones I know in the same way they represent your friends. I think the film says the rest for me.

Best,

Tim
MagicSanta
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That a guy from West Virginia is a nice guy to the Muslims in Dearborn? I don't get it but whatever keeps you happy. I say we send an American Muslim who is mellow to the mountains of Aghanistan and see what happens....
The Drake
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On 2007-10-30 23:42, MagicSanta wrote:
I say we send an American Muslim who is mellow to the mountains of Aghanistan and see what happens....




I don't think I mentioned other muslim countries but instead only mentioned Muslims. Lets stay with the American Muslims you are talking about. These are the ones who suffer the most from stereotypes.

Best,

Tim
MagicSanta
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Well...I'm an average American and I don't have a stereotypical Muslim in mind. Please list the traits contributed to them as stereotypes so I might know if I have any of them. Thanks!

Here is what I know:

Good Muslims are okay. Bad Muslims sneak in across the Northern border of the US. I'm not going to name countries that allow it.
Bill Nuvo
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Quote:
Here is what I know:

Good Muslims are okay. Bad Muslims sneak in across the Northern border of the US. I'm not going to name countries that allow it.


That would be the US that allows sneaking in? LOL

Yes Magicsanta, you can find faults in the film. You can find faults with anything. But if you take the general message of the doc, you can't mistake it. Of course, you have already mentioned and agreed on it. The sad fact is that there are a lot of people who unfortunately lump everybody together and judges them based on the actions of others in their religion, race, association....
Chessmann
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On 2007-10-30 19:46, Timothy Drake wrote:
The fact that Allah is the same god Christians worship is one I learned a few years ago.


While this is commonly said, there are actually a number of significant differences.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
The Drake
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Quote:
On 2007-10-31 09:25, Chessmann wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-30 19:46, Timothy Drake wrote:
The fact that Allah is the same god Christians worship is one I learned a few years ago.


While this is commonly said, there are actually a number of significant differences.


Hello Chessmann,

There are differences in the direction each religion had taken their beliefs in but they all (Christians, Muslims and Jews) worship the god that spoke to Moses on the Mountain as their one god. That was what I meant when I said its the same god.

It all started the same but has developed into different branches of worship.

Best,

Tim
stoneunhinged
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That's not what I read in a Chick tract last week.
Chessmann
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Yes, now I see better what you were meaning.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Joey Stalin
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Yeah, Tim, can you stop being a troll and can we get this back on topic?
-A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.
-It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
-The secret impresses no one. The trick you use it for is everything.

See you space cowboy...
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