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johne
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[quote]On 2007-11-13 18:45, Tim David wrote:
Johne, while those issues are deserving of attention...this board is not really the place, would you agree?

I agree to an extent...yes this is a magic board, but on the flipside, the whole issue seems to be regarding everyone's issue of entertainment and how it can affect one's line of thinking.

I'm just trying to get my posts up man :O)

J
sibbie
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Quote:
On 2007-11-13 16:57, mindpunisher wrote:
This has been a really entertaining ride. But outside this community do the public really care?


No, the public does not care. If they did, NBC would have rode it as long as they could. Most magicians (and all inclusive allied arts) take everything they see about their art with a deeper care and concern than the public just as a painter or musician does with their work and peers. Proof of this can be seen throughout the history of the art.
Tom Jorgenson
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Kingstardog: "If Criss did not believe there was an actual communication with the dead he would not have used black magic sigals that are to halt spirits from entry. He was afraid it was a real link."


Say Whaaat??? Please elucidate. In detail, if you have the time.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
freefallillusion1
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Quote:
On 2007-11-13 14:40, Jim-Callahan wrote:
Tim,

You perceive my actions based upon your reality.

So you tell me what is the truth of your reality at it pertains to this topic?

And please offer proof becouse without proof it can not be considered the truth.

Jim


Once again, this is going to sound like an attack and it is not meant to be. It is purely my take on the claims of one individual, claims that I am quite passionate about.

JIM- the burden of proof is upon YOU, as just you stated in your very own words. So, let's meet up, I'll get some envelopes, you conjure up Raymond, I'll go into a seperate random room with Raymond following me (or near me in the same way he was near Raven when she placed the object into the box), Raymond will watch what I personally place into the envelopes, and then you tell me what he tells you. I CAN SEE NO WAY that this is unfair, and again, it's something you SHOULD do, as you stated above. PROVE IT. End this once and for all. Show that you can do the same thing you did on the show, but with MY envelopes and MY location. Prove all of us doubters wrong.

Jim- you also claim that Criss makes a mockery of Christianity and that bothers you. UNBELIEVABLE!!! Jim, read your bible. I don't know what translation you are reading from, but my bible says that what you claim to do is wrong beyond wrong. You are the very definition of liar, as would a Shakesperian actor be if he claimed to really be Hamlet. You've crossed the line. We (the magicians on this board who you think don't know better) know that you are a crook. Maybe you haven't yet taken anyone's money but you have the exact same set of ethics as those who do.

I'll state it again, I have zero respect for those who attempt to pass off a lie as the truth- and we all know what I mean by truth, I simply mean truth. Jim, not only do you attempt to pass off a lie as the truth, but you vigorously defend it.

One other thing- I have yet to actually watch an entire episode of Phenomenon, as I am not a fan of Gellar either. You'd better believe, though, that when I heard there was a nut trying to say he was real, I immediately found the video and have seen it a zillion times. I have not seen Criss actually say he'd "bust and expose" you, but if he did, then Jim, consider yourself CLEARLY busted and exposed as the FRAUD you are. Can Criss point out the exact method you used? Probably not, as he has better things to do than watch you like a hawk. Can I point out the exact method that you used? No, I wasn't there. So, stop this ridiculous talk of "Criss not knowing how I did it", etc. The point you're trying to dodge is that Criss clearly understood, as does everyone here, that there are a lot of ways you could have pulled this off, and that you did NOT do it the way you claimed, which is by actually communicating with a spirit on the other side. Criss proved that much. At that point, you had nowhere to go. I'm proposing the same challenge, and you still have nowhere to go (and you still have yet to tell me, yourself, why you can't do what I outlined above). So, let's hear the reasons like my negative energy being the problem, etc. Got any better excuses? Still awaiting your response!

Phil
Decomposed
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Quote:
On 2007-11-13 16:23, Tim David wrote:
Tony and others....I knew someone would come out and say that ALL magic is lying.

It is not.

I'll give you an analogy that explains the difference.

When you go see a movie or even a play, you may see special effect, unrealistic plot lines, fantastic characters, etc. In other words, things that aren't true or real.

You aren't being lied to because there is a previous understanding that what you are seeing (and paying for) is a work of fiction.

HOWEVER, if a movie advertised itself as a TRUE story, and was NOT - people would be up in arms.

That is exactly what Jim did.

Simply by calling yourself a magician, you let the audience know that what you do is mere conjuring, sleight of hand trickery.

Jim rejects that term and opts for "Paranormalist". In addition to that, he makes unequivocal claims that what he does is the real deal.

That is in no way comparable to what a magician does.

Of course, this is by design. Jim wants to stand out from his competition and this is how he's chosen to do it. He wants to be different, so he claims he's different.

He's thrown out morals in exchange for publicity.

He's not the first to do it and he won't be the last. However, it still is not okay in my book and I can't respect the decision, nor can I respect supporting the decision.


I would be curious what the public thinks the difference between a mentalist and a magician would be. I make an effort not to lie to the spectators even though I am paid to mislead them. Take them down a path and let them decide. If they ask if I have a gift, I tell them yes, Im breathing. I do take risks but I never take any chances. What I do is not all tricks. At least one percent of it is not. Smile

Where I work at the owner is very serious about how I am presented. He has come right out and announced me as doing tricks, what I do is not real etc. At first I loathed his introduction. Then I considered it a challenge. There are some you will never convince you are not real (if you are convincing enough). There will be some who no matter what you told them, they would still believe it is all trickery.

Making false claims sets you up for trouble IMO.
DMG
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Something paranormal is, by definition, an occurence without explanation. If there is a method, it is then explainable and NOT paranormal.

So - for performance sake - I am (new as I am) with Jim and his supporters, even though I don't really care for acts such a channelling and psychic garbl-de-gook (no offense meant toward Jim).


I am on the fence about Jim's claims outside of the performance arena. On the one hand I cannot stomach claims of the supernatural - most folk know its bunk - especially magicians. On the other hand - I do not make my living as an entertainer. I can understand that folks who might like acts like Jim's would not hire him if he admitted to being merely a magician.

Also, the more I am on this forum the less I think of CA. However, Randi ROCKS and I encourage Jim to actually take the Million Dollar Challenge (haven't looked in a while to see if this is progressing at all) and WIN! That would truly be exciting!!!
KingStardog
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On 2007-11-14 01:39, Tom Jorgenson wrote:
Kingstardog: "If Criss did not believe there was an actual communication with the dead he would not have used black magic sigals that are to halt spirits from entry. He was afraid it was a real link."
Say Whaaat??? Please elucidate. In detail, if you have the time.


For those out of the know, a sigal is a black magic spell reduced to the simplest form of symbolism that can have an instantaneous reaction with the subconscious mind.
This being the reason for its use, since a strong gaze reinforces it for a short period of time. (Note the frame when the backs of the envelopes are exposed.)

You will need to freeze frame the envelopes. The circle with the line denotes the alchemical symbol of salt. when the line is offset it retains the original context and any similar one is added, which is water. In this case salt water, or one of the strongest anti spirit, sigals. Add to that the symbol of lightening or great power which is again represented in the off center line and circle. The rest are also sigals that can be argued to be a 'signature' but it in itself, was drawn into two sigals as well. I have no opinion on those without a close up examination. You will also notice that in a single frame the other sides of the envelopes contain the same alchemical shorthand. Others schooled in ancient symbols and sigals are welcome to comment. If not you may look at symbols.com but that site does not have clear explanations, that can be found elsewhere in bound text.

That is of course if you believe in that sort of thing. The envelopes contained stick figures of a cat in one and a dog in the other. He believed this would make fools out of anyone who attempted a guess. He tore them up in his hotel room that night after realizing he made a fool of himself.

Be careful of word and deed lest a tiny bird carry it away to the master. (or in modern saying don't do stupid stuff or someone will tell) And of course I will retract if Criss can prove any different without manufacturing evidence.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
Tom Jorgenson
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Sigil.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
KingStardog
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Yep. A little check to see if folks are following along.

I have to stand with the phrase: Idealogical bigot
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
dlachance
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Quote:
On 2007-11-13 01:50, burst wrote:
I'm right there with you, Gabe. He isn't going around taking advantage of the bereaved, so I really don't see what the problem is.

/paul.f


I think this is deal on (pardon the pun). I too was having my problems with Jim...was he real, was he fact, did he claim to be real or not. The bottom line is he is an entertainer...and a good one. His methods will sure make even the most skeptic of us beleive. What Mr. Angel did was way wrong. Houdini exposed the frauds of his day that were taking money from helpless people during there time of pain by making them beleive they could contact a dead relative. What Jim is doing is PURE entertainment.....real or not.

Dorian
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Corona Smith
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Quote:
On 2007-11-14 13:59, KingStardog wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-11-14 01:39, Tom Jorgenson wrote:
Kingstardog: "If Criss did not believe there was an actual communication with the dead he would not have used black magic sigals that are to halt spirits from entry. He was afraid it was a real link."
Say Whaaat??? Please elucidate. In detail, if you have the time.


For those out of the know, a sigal is a black magic spell reduced to the simplest form of symbolism that can have an instantaneous reaction with the subconscious mind.
This being the reason for its use, since a strong gaze reinforces it for a short period of time. (Note the frame when the backs of the envelopes are exposed.)

You will need to freeze frame the envelopes. The circle with the line denotes the alchemical symbol of salt. when the line is offset it retains the original context and any similar one is added, which is water. In this case salt water, or one of the strongest anti spirit, sigals. Add to that the symbol of lightening or great power which is again represented in the off center line and circle. The rest are also sigals that can be argued to be a 'signature' but it in itself, was drawn into two sigals as well. I have no opinion on those without a close up examination. You will also notice that in a single frame the other sides of the envelopes contain the same alchemical shorthand. Others schooled in ancient symbols and sigals are welcome to comment. If not you may look at symbols.com but that site does not have clear explanations, that can be found elsewhere in bound text.

That is of course if you believe in that sort of thing. The envelopes contained stick figures of a cat in one and a dog in the other. He believed this would make fools out of anyone who attempted a guess. He tore them up in his hotel room that night after realizing he made a fool of himself.

Be careful of word and deed lest a tiny bird carry it away to the master. (or in modern saying don't do stupid stuff or someone will tell) And of course I will retract if Criss can prove any different without manufacturing evidence.


Wow, that is actually very interesting, thanks.

Corona.
KingStardog
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I have to admit I gave Jim a hard time when he showed up here. In defense he did ask for opinion/critique but I have no defense at all for poor actions on my part. I have great respect for Jim because he is talented enough to make his own niche and not "sling the same old hash", so to speak. I have apologized before, but if it was missed , I apologize to Jim again here. There are only a handful that are bright and forward thinking in mentalism and he is one of them.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
bdekolta
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Quote:
Something paranormal is, by definition, an occurence without explanation.


Actually paranormal is, by definition, something that occurs "outside" or "contrary" to the normal. Which leaves many things that could be classified as paranormal.
KingStardog
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Quote:
On 2007-11-14 14:39, Corona Smith wrote:
Wow, that is actually very interesting, thanks.
Corona.


Yes I left out some things like spiritus, Which is also the circle and line but if one really studied they would find more.

Not recognizing the word sigal, is in itself an immunization from its essence, or in short a denial of its existance, or more descriptive, a reversal of its power... how to say it... an opening to using the force of one against itself for a differing purpose. False luminosity is the caging of the mind,and eventual defeat of self and defeat of all in the false path. They prosper in the wrong things.

If you believe that sort of thing.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
DMG
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Quote:
Actually paranormal is, by definition, something that occurs "outside" or "contrary" to the normal. Which leaves many things that could be classified as paranormal.

or - an occurance without explanation. I highly doubt the mechanics of Jim's... "effect"..., once known, would fit in the category of "paranormal".
Arnon
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Here's an enhanced photo of the envelopes Criss Angel held up:

Image
ALEXANDRE
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On 2007-11-12 20:16, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
... the performer proceeds to do his act as though it were a genuine example of unusual powers: - which, in fact, it is! If presented as mere tricks, the act would not command anywhere near the same interest and spellbound attention – if indeed, it didn’t fall flat.
- Harlan Tarbell, The Tarbell Course in Magic, Volume IV.
- Robert Cassidy, Fundamentals, page 5


Tarbell and Cassidy are FRAUDS!!! FRAUDS I SAY!!!
KingStardog
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GEEEZZZ! have we stopped washing our hands before we meet the public?
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
KingStardog
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Seriously though. Thank you Arnon for supplying the close up.

These symbols span several ancient languages, and Alchemy which I keyed on first. Since we see them all through life, they could be randomly jotted down.
There may be a significance in the date on each end rather than just once.
It would appear at first and possibly not corredt, to be a bit more than a protective device and possibly be incorporating a power borrowing. (dantallion?)Its pretty sloppy work at best, so all are guesses and that is really stretching it for a guess. The connectivity points on the circle seem to be indications that each part had a purpose.

My best guess is a very modern form of kaos magic that has broken away from lucifurian and bhapomet doctrines and has a minor focus on sciences. Its a best guess based on scribbles.

None of my own work focuses on this sort of thing and I would be at the bottom of the heap as far as the topic goes. I am in no way an expert on any of these things. All are mere guesses, and starting points for others to research.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
Tom Jorgenson
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..and as Freud said, Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
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