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zeggman New user 48 Posts |
Other than a 17-year-old lottery prediction, the only thing I see on the Jim Karol bio page that even hints at the supernatural is "many people think he can actually read minds." He isn't claiming that he does. He isn't claiming that anyone can. He isn't asserting that telepathy is "real."
I see that as fundamentally different than offering to hire the deceased, but maybe that's just me. |
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DJM Inner circle Israel 1681 Posts |
Yes, dreaming loterry numbers that came true is not a supernatural claim, or that he's so intuitive people think he can read minds. Memorizing thousands and thousands of facts and zip codes is also very natural.
Are you trying to be a troll or something? |
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Genshi and DJM, why losing your time on deaf ears?
I just contacted Raymond and he told me that were Randi or Criss Angel have said "Go and badmouth Jim Karol!" the guy would have done so and if you had pointed out to him that Jim Callahan does the same things, he would have come up with HUNDREDS of pseudo-reasons on why that WOULD NOT COUNT as a psychic claim. Listen to Raymond (and to me) ... You are losing time and, PLUS, in a totally unimportant battle here. Jim Callahan (hopefully) will continue to claim what HE wants and maybe he will have bigger shows from now on... and this guy, well... he will also go on with his skeptic mindset. For sure this will not trouble Jim Callahan in the least. Maybe Jim Callahan claims, however, will trouble the guy...
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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zeggman New user 48 Posts |
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And you DARE to defend this ultimate hypocrite in outing ANYONE!? This is why so many here are so angry with what Criss Angel did. It was one performer outing another performer. If Jim was like John Edwards or Sylvia Brown going around channeling the dead loved ones of people in grief for exploitation, then yes, I would out him too, but this is NOT what Jim does. He is "in character" channeling another character to create a performance for entertainment purposes only! Plain and simple, no further need to argue this and we certainly don't need yet another thread about it PLEASE! I defend anyone who makes it clear that what Jim did was simply entertainment, rather than an actual demonstration of contact with the dead. Since you seem to agree that this performance should be seen as "for entertainment purposes only," I still don't see what the problem is. It seems to me that lots of people who despised Angel before the show are using this as simply another excuse to vent spleen. So let me ask you. When he said to the subsequent act, Mike Super, that his routine didn't display any real psychic ability, why was that not just as despicable? Isn't that outing another performer? It isn't, because once his act has concluded, Mike Super doesn't pretend it WAS real. What everyone is incensed about is that Jim Callahan wasn't allowed to pretend HIS demonstration was real. So all this talk about "entertainment" is disingenuous. The only "outing" that happened was driving home the point that it was just entertainment. If that's really all he was claiming, it's "please don't throw me in the briar patch, Mr. Angel!" |
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Vanian Regular user Los Angeles, CA - Santa Fe, NM 154 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 21:41, Lord Of The Horses wrote: True, true. I tried so hard not to jump in on this one but, I got reeled in. How about this, sticking with the title of the thread "Angel vs Callahan" who would win if they were thrown into the Ultimate Fighter Ring? Angel obviously works out but Jim looks like a brawler and has the height and reach advantage. |
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zeggman New user 48 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 21:35, DJM wrote: For all I know, he predicted the same 3 numbers every day for two years, until they finally hit. His act on Phenomenon was not predicting lottery numbers, so why should this be an issue? He doesn't claim to read minds, so why is that an issue either? I haven't seen charlatans preying on vulnerable people by offering to spout zip codes without looking them up either. It's clear to me that all these red herrings are being offered just to avoid a straight answer on the question of whether it's okay to encourage people to think an entertainer is actually channeling spirits. It looks like people think that is okay, and just don't want to come out and say it. |
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Vanian Regular user Los Angeles, CA - Santa Fe, NM 154 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 21:51, zeggman wrote: You obviously didn't read my post then, top of page 3 here. Criss Angel claimed to be channeling the spirit of an actual dead girl for NON entertainment purposes. Deal with that! Or we should all listen to Lord Of The Horses and realize this will not get solved, so deal with the title of the thread, who would win in the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Angel or Callahan? (This will be the only thing I address from now on in this thread.) |
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zeggman New user 48 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 21:55, genshi wrote: Everything on the Mindfreak show is preceded by a big red and black warning, characterizing everything -- EVERYTHING -- as stunts and illusions. That's even stronger than saying "the entertainment you are about to see" or "the entertainment you have seen," where it's clear in the case of Jim Callahan one of the intended meanings is "I hope you were entertained by the spirit channeling you just saw." If Criss Angel pretends he's actually been in contact with the dead after his performance is over, he deserves to be busted for it too. If he presented psychics on his show without making it clear that he didn't believe in real psychic ability, he deserves to be busted for that too. The only thing I'm defending here is his decision to call entertainment entertainment in the case of Jim Callahan's Phenomenon performance. |
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Tim David Regular user MA 164 Posts |
Jim Karol claimed he will prove his psychic abilities to the world in one year.
http://www.nbc.com/Phenomenon/about/cont......ew.shtml What is it with the Jim's? |
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DJM Inner circle Israel 1681 Posts |
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For all I know, he predicted the same 3 numbers every day for two years, until they finally hit. His act on Phenomenon was not predicting lottery numbers, so why should this be an issue? He doesn't claim to read minds, so why is that an issue either? He claimed in his intro of the show that he dreamed the numbers for that specific loterry. It sounds to me like you actually do believe in the supernatural if you think it's possible. Quote:
I haven't seen charlatans preying on vulnerable people by offering to spout zip codes without looking them up either. And I haven't seen charlatans preying on people by knowing there's a toy car inside their boxes. |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 20:54, zeggman wrote: The story behind Jim Karol's prediction is that at the end of a show one night he said for everyone to play '222' in the next day's lottery. It was not a big deal and he just said it off the cuff. The next day '222' hit and there was a huge payout to a bunch of people in the Allentown area that had taken his advice and played that number. Jim had no idea that this had happened until the press started calling him. As far as I know he has not made a lottery prediction part of his act (at least he has never done it when I have worked with him). This incident does show that performers have more influence on their audience than they realize. |
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DerZauberer Elite user Southern California 468 Posts |
If you take the performances at face value and forget about anything outside of the show, Criss singled-out Jim from the other contestants with a personal agenda. He broke the format of the show and attacked Jim without provocation. He also attacked Uri. Both Uri and the Host exclaimed that “This is not the time or place for this challenge!” as Criss was saying “blah blah blah”, like a little school girl.
If you go back and watch the other contestant introductions, I see some are claiming supernatural powers as well. Jim was the only contestant that stated after his routine, that it was for entertainment. Criss broke the Code of Ethics of Magicians by attacking and berating a fellow performer. Even worse - on live television. That alone makes him wrong. Add into the mix the crap he does on his little cable show and that makes him a hypocrite. |
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Chris C. New user 72 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 21:41, Lord Of The Horses wrote: So you've been talking to Raymond too? I do not totally agree with any one set of beliefs. My thoughts are my own. I have points of disagreement with both Angel and Randi, but I happen to support Angel's actions in the perticular situation between him and Jim Callahan on the October 31, 2007 episode of Phenomenon. Exactly how does that make me closed-minded? Jim Karol's performance was a completely different issue, well within the boudaries of standard magic/mentalism. There is a distinct difference between leaving the audience wondering "How did he stick his hand in that trap and find out what celebrity I thought of? and leaving them thinking "He can contact the dead." I am proud to say that I will continue in my skeptical mindset, seeking proof before blindly accepting paranormal claims. Callahan's claims don't trouble me in the least. People like him come and go. I will still be entertaining audiences with magic and comedy when people lose interest in his false claims and see him for what he is - a magician doing tricks. Lastly, I would ask you to consider that the mark of an educated mind is to entertain ideas without accepting them. I have thought about the paranormal and, based on all the evidence at my disposal, concluded that it is all a deception. If someone can prove otherwise, I will believe. Is this not a perfect example of open-mindedness? I also find it interesting that you have consistently made attacks and sly remarks directed at me and my small thought capacity and closed-mindedness, while I have never commented on a particular poster. It seems as though everyone who disagrees with you is automatically blind and closed-minded. Throughout history, those who attack their opponents and attempt to marginalize them have always been wrong. Why should it be any different now? Chris Connelly |
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zeggman New user 48 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 22:22, DerZauberer wrote: True, but only if you take the performance at face value and forget about anything outside the show. It's what Jim does outside the show that's problematic. |
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lane99 Elite user 421 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 22:36, Chris C. wrote: One thing that does make you look closed-minded is that you seem to think it's ok for you to think people are talking to you when they aren't, but it's not ok for Jim to do that. Quote:
On 2007-11-09 22:36, Chris C. wrote: Without getting into a debate as to whether this is an accurate statement or not, if YOU really believe this, you better suck it up and get onside with Jim right quick. Unless, that is, you'd deny Crangel misquoting and lying about what his opponent said, and calling him "scum and the lowest form of humanity" (I believe that's close to verbatim. But, at minimum, it was words to that effect) is an obvious attempt to "marginalize" him. p.s. Although this debate is kind of fun, one thing a lot of people seem to be overlooking is that the confrontation WAS semi-staged. Cris was planning to attack Jim, Jim knew this, and had put some forethought into how he would respond to it. |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
As to the PS. Since they both acted like they were delivering lines, badly, it was pretty clear it was pre planned as far as Criss was going to make a comment and Jim responding.
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Xpilot Elite user Florida 464 Posts |
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On 2007-11-09 21:35, DJM wrote: Right. According to Jim's site, "Jim has memorized over 80,000 zip codes". Good trick considering that the US Post Office has less than 45,000 zip codes. |
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Mariagi Special user MIND, MYTH & MAGICK 654 Posts |
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On 2007-11-10 00:54, Xpilot wrote: another randi's puppet has spoken |
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andre combrinck Special user South Africa 953 Posts |
Jim, a fraud ?This is really a funny statement because,the difference between a magician and a mentalist is:'While both accomplish their effects by trickery, the mentalist rarely admits it.There is an important reason for this attitude of the mentalist.His mysteries of the mind only are impressive if cloaked in an atmosphere of genuine phenomena.'-Tarbell vol4 pp191.If most mentalism book teach the same attitude, why can Jim not claim to have these powers?He's not taking money from your mother.
AJ |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Hey Bob, he memorized 'em twice....
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