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entity
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Tom: I don't think the quote was directed at Derren, although he printed it in his book.

I'd agree with you, that in most cases in Mentalism, there is no intent to create art, the audience doesn't see it as art, and so there is little art.

Gableson: I never stated as an absolute that all art is objectively judged. What I said, and said again in my last post, was that aspects of art CAN be judged objectively, and sometimes is judges objectively. That's what I've always said.

Re: Super... I agreed with you several posts back, then reminded you that I'd agreed with you a couple of posts back. This is my last notice... I agree with you -- he's an artist -- and that's fully consistent with what I've said in my previous posts.

Are you on tryptophane overload from turkey-tasting? Is that what's keeping you from reading and understanding what I say?

- entity
entity
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Gableson: Didn't mean to sound snippy with my last post, but I'm suffering through a rotten head-cold, and I guess it got the best of me.

I'm going to sign off for a while and try to get better. It's been good talking with you.

- entity
gabelson
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Hey, peace, Entity. I've been sick for three months with bronchitis and then a sinus infection. It's not my nature to be contentious, either. Glad we can part as friends here, and I look forward to future stimulating conversation.

Happy Thanksgiving, and feel better.

-Gabelson
John Nesbit
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Quote:
On 2007-11-22 23:04, gabelson wrote:
Hey, peace, Entity. I've been sick for three months with bronchitis and then a sinus infection. It's not my nature to be contentious, either. Glad we can part as friends here, and I look forward to future stimulating conversation.

Happy Thanksgiving, and feel better.

-Gabelson


("Happy Thanksgiving, and feel better"). You'd better ! Or I'll knock the Stuffing out of you !
"And to all a good night". Smile

Best
John
gabelson
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Don't get smart, John. I know where you live.

(in the beautiful state of Massachusetts, correct?)

Have a great one.
teejay
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Hi Gabe
Thanks for the post. You may not have a working knowledge of NLP jargon but that is not important. You asked the insightful question 'why?' The NLP jargon would be:
What will you gain from doing this(at a personal level)?
Nobody has even considered answering your and my question yet
This is normal because this question goes deep and can irritate people
Perhaps some of the posters would like to think about that:
What will you gain (at a personal level) from performing Mentalism?
Once you have a clear answer to this, you then have a clear direction for EVERYTHING that follows. Audiences, effects, performance and persona. You will probably already have an unconscious direction now. So why bother? Because when you have a clear direction, you can move more quickly, you can avoid wasting time with
non-vital elements and start looking for short cuts. In other words, you become totally focussed on EXACTLY what you want to do.
Cheers
TJ
Malchat
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Quote:
On 2007-11-23 05:45, teejay wrote:
What will you gain (at a personal level) from performing Mentalism?


Nubile groupies.
“You are what you pretend to be.”
teejay
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Quote:
On 2007-11-23 05:45, teejay wrote:
What will you gain (at a personal level) from performing Mentalism?


On 2007-11-23 06:05, Malchat wrote:
Quote:
Nubile groupies.


(Written with tongue in cheek)
Yes. Liberace and Rock Hudson had lots of nubile groupies but perhaps they had a different outcome in mind to yourself? You are starting to define your audiences.
Obviously you will not work in Biker bars like Bob Cassidy? Or in football changing
rooms like David Blaine? A lot of the posts here complain about unsuitable audiences
You, however, know exactly what audiences that you will go for. You could fine tune your direction even more:-
So, what will you gain (at a personal level) from having Nubile groupies?
:)
coupcoupdaddy
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The plural seems to be more significant than the singular although multiple triple predictions garnered more collective conscious votes than multiple roulettes. The entertainment factor blurs betwixt the performance arts of mentalism, mental magic, bizzare magic and faux shamanistic feats. Oh Fi, fay foe fee.

Respectfully,

--Isnot Liwok
foreign correspondent, z and lt



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teejay
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Quote:
On 2007-11-25 10:20, coupcoupdaddy wrote:
The plural seems to be more significant than the singular although multiple triple predictions garnered more collective conscious votes than multiple roulettes. The entertainment factor blurs betwixt the performance arts of mentalism, mental magic, bizzare magic and faux shamanistic feats. Oh Fi, fay foe fee.Respectfully,
--Isnot Liwok


So, what will you gain (at a personal level) from having garnered ALL of those votes?
:)
teejay
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Have a look at this excellent post on the question of WHY?

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=5319573

Is that question mark after WHY redundant?
:)
Alan Wheeler
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I am still hoping to read something about distinctive types or levels of mentalism and methods for portraying them for different audiences. So... perhaps some of the following terms will clear the theoretical air:

1. Mimetic Theory of Art: Characteristic of the classical age, this theory views art in terms of its imitation of the universe and reality and how well art displays ideal beauty and truth. "Art imitates life."

2. Pragmatic Theory of Art: Characteristic of Horace and most of the 18th century, this theory views art in terms of its effect on the audience. M.H. Abrams in _The Mirror and the Lamp_ states , "the pragmatic view, broadly conceived, has been the principal aesthetic attitude of the Western world."

3. Expressive Theory: Characteristic of the romantic period, this theory views art in terms of the artist. Art is an overflow of the powerful vision or feelings of the artist.

4. Objective Theory of Art: The modern idea of "art for art's sake." This theory views art in terms of the work itself. The artists intentions are not important and the audience's response is not important. A work of art as a self-contained entity, although it may not be a finite product but an indefinate process.

Some people deny that independent works exist in any mode of being that permits discussion; all that exists is a network of complex relations among the works.

(This synopsis is taken from William Harmon's writings on criticism.)

I personally think each of these theories (like the blind men who all felt part of the elephant) each carry just a part of the truth about art and that not one of them explains the whole truth about art.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
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Nongard1
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Teejay... I actully repost the same reply over here. In the "sleepy, you are getting sleepy forum" someone posted a youtube clip to "mesmeric hypnotism" a proported demonstratin of animal magnatism, wodering it is was real. Here was the reply teejay liked, and it goes to the heart of the question what is the gain (The original poster in the hypnosis section was bummed to learn that the demonstration he had see was "fake" and why so many people would attend a class with something "fake" being taught):

Its not fake suggestion. Its fake "supernatural". Why so many people in class? Looks like he only had 30 out of 6 billion, but that's another post....

Lots of people go to seminars to learn things that look real, but are not. For example, how many people go to a magic convention, knowing cards are marked, black-art abounds and ladys really don't get sawed in half? They go becasue they can learn something that will give them a sense of power or mystery. People don't mind doing fake stuff if some people are believers. Take Uri Geller for example.... Take Peter Popoff... or any other "supernaturalist" mindreading, spoonbending, mentalist (or TV misister).

Have the people in the video learned how to influence others and gain power and control - even if its not true "magik"? The answer is yes, and that is why people go.... Come to our class in March, I will teach you how to draw people over using "Animal Magnatism" if that what you want to learn... It does look good on stage!

Although I rarely post outside the hypnosis forum, glad I popped over here! Thanx for letting me post! Great section, I should stop by more often!

Richard
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis
teejay
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Quote:
On 2007-11-27 09:26, Alan Wheeler wrote:
I personally think each of these theories (like the blind men who all felt part of the elephant) each carry just a part of the truth about art and that not one of them explains the whole truth about art.



Hi Alan
Great post
What you say is true but it is totally impractical because people WILL discuss them
But they will NEVER resolve them because mostly they cross logical levels
You have mentioned viewers satisfaction and artist's expression. These two cannot be compared against each other as to which is 'better'. To give a more concrete example, imagine two runners discussing which is better. A Nike running shoe
or a special runner's recovery drink. You can't compare them and achieve resolution
because you are not comparing like with like. The difference between 'viewers satisfaction and artist's expression' is not so easily seen. But it is very real.
One is not the same as the other
So it is with mentalism
Spiritualism, psychic powers, mentalism with waivers and mental magic are different
logical levels. And easily sorted by the readers here. I was trying to get a discussion where two or even more wouldn't be jumbled together
I think everybody knows which class of the above they want to be. The next question is: What will you gain from that? Or WHY? When you know this answer truthfully (not
necessarily revealed here lol), you will then know what audience you are aiming for, what effects to do and, most important, how to improve your 'operation'
Which are what you said you were hoping for
:)
TheTrance-Master
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I once years ago, learned Mesmeric Induction techniques, from my late fiend, Ormond McGill. It has to do with working with energies and intent. A simple way to practice might be sitting across from someone and holding hands, sitting knee to knee and silently or for purposes here, telepathically thinking a progressive relaxation induction as they sit silently across from the Hypnotist / Mesmerist. In a few words, we are more connected than we thing and if you've ever felt someone's eyes on your back as you turned around and looked at them watching you, you have in fact felt energy. We are also more connected than we are willing to admit. I concur with Richard here, some of what you are seeing there is showmanship, in combination with falling body catalepsy.
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