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stache New user 69 Posts |
To answer truthteller's question above. I am in total agreement.
to publish the details of someone's performance work - in video or in print - without their permission: BAD |
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teevtee Special user 963 Posts |
I agree Brad... to publish details of someone's work without permission = BAD. I just don't know if that was really what was being asked for here... I just think some poor wording was initially used.
Anyway, I have to say I know all about having things stolen. I have produced a series of DVDs (non magic) for commercial sale. It KILLS me to see my work (which took several tears and MASSIVE amounts of time) available on various pirate down load sites and even You Tube. I see bootlegs being sold on eBay all the time and now there is even a commercial product being made in the U.K that has stolen my footage and incorporated it into their own product. It is all VERY, VERY disappointing and frustrating. At first my reaction was to get angry and sweat I would never produce another DVD. Then I realized that this is part of modern life, it is not a good thing but it is reality and there is no way to stop it. I can let it defeat me or I can forge on and hope that the good people out weigh the bad. I think this same thing applies to magic. We can never stop unethical people from stealing routines or exposing secrets or bootlegging DVDs or what have you, this is the world we live in. I just hate to see GOOD people get punished because there are bad people out there. |
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alannasser Loyal user 213 Posts |
Brad -I prefer "Brad" to the question-begging "truthteller"- writes "Using someone else's unpublished work for your own advantage without permission IS objectionable." Does this mean that if I see a performance of e.g. Dean's Box and I am impressed by an aspect or portion of it, and I then go on to incorporate that inflection of the effect into my own performance, I've done something unethical? Brad, with all the authority of a burning bush, seems to be answering that question in the affirmative. But says who? It's not obvious that what I just described is unethical. It seems obvious to Brad. It doesn't to me.
And poor Slydinisomething - why the take-no-prisoners approach to taking issue with his question? I can imagine some fledgling magicians being too intimidated to ask questions lest the Pontiffs of Magic turn Torquemada on him/her. Beginners need to be taught and nurtured, not torn apart. As stache puts it: "Jumping down the throat of a student just for asking the wrong question: BAD" Our prestidigitational popes need to take themselves less seriously. Or just step down and join the common bishopric along with the rest of us. I mean only some of that in a good way. Best, Alan |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Actually, Alan, I believe that if you see someone else perform a trick, or element thereof, and you would like to use it, you must ALWAYS ask and receive permission. If you do not, then you do not have the right to use those ideas for your own purposes. Heck, I even think this is true in instances when you see someone else perform an already published or commercially available trick (unless that person is performing that trick in an instructional context.) It's really simple: If you didn't think of it, it's not yours to use! Seems blazingly obvious to me.
I realize many disagree with this. I have also observed that many of those people's "acts" are little more than a pastiche of qualities, lines, bits, and tricks lifted from various magicians. Let's change the field of confrontation: Let's say you're a stand up comedian and you like someone's style, or one of their lines, and you take it and add it to your show - is that considered "ethical?" How would your peers react to this? I'll let you guess what the answers are. Brad |
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Tophie Loyal user 261 Posts |
OK....
Just thought I would put in my 2 cents..... I'm a surgeon. If another surgeon comes into the operating room to observe a specific case, or would like to see how I do a procedure its really not objectionable. They are just trying to see perhaps a better way to apply a surgical technique to their practice for better patient care. I would not necessarily call it intellectual theft or unethical. |
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ggarcia Veteran user San Antonio Tx 395 Posts |
Magicians are so funny. some are either totally free from magic sin - the holiest of holy ready for magic sainthood or total hypocrites. leave poor Slydini62 alone. all he did was ask for a description of the routine. he didn't ask for any explanations. granted his request could have been worded differently. there isn't anything wrong with describing a routine. he put two ropes in a box and they came out linked. what in the world is wrong with that? if a magician doesn't want his effect or routine to ever be discussed or described then they should perform it in the dark by themself. describing something and explaining something are two different things. what I am gathering is that no one in this thread has ever described a routine or trick they saw someone perform to another magician or friend. if you have, did you get permission from the performer before you did?
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Tophie,
Surgery is not magic. Magic is an art based on secrets. We in the "brotherhood" forget that. A magician's marketability and in some cases their artistic interests come from being unique. Magic, by definition, should be unique. Sadly, we have turned it into a commodity. If you, as a surgeon or a magician, wish to share what you know, that is YOUR choice. But shouldn't that choice be made by the person whose work is being shared? Gino, I've come to my beliefs after years of considering my own behavior. I am not free from sin. When I was young, I was dumb. Thankfully I had peers who smacked me upside the head and called my stupidity to my attention. I am better because of those lessons. They hurt, but they stuck. But no one's personal history changes the fact that asking to have someone else's routine published without their permission is inherently wrong. And yes, I have had magic friends share with me their routines and ask that I not tell anyone about them. And I don't. When Slydini made his request I contacted Eric and asked him how he felt about his routine being described "step by step." He did not want that to happen. I think we should respect that. Do you disagree? |
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ggarcia Veteran user San Antonio Tx 395 Posts |
Whats up brad?
do I disagree? yes and no. I agree with your assessment of the "step by step" comment. that was a little too deep. that is where I believe Slydini made his mistake. but I don't agree with that we need to ask permission to describe a routine that has been publicly shown many times. I too have been asked not to discuss a routine but that is because it has not been shown publicly. I see nothing wrong with Slydini's request if he would have said something like: I have heard a lot about decamps's dean box routine, could someone give me a brief overview. response: he take two ropes and puts them in the box and they come out linked...then all of a sudden he pulls a rabbit out of the box. to top it off the rabbit is wearing underwear. I see nothing wrong with that. no explanation just an overview or description of what they witnessed. isn't that what magicians want. don't magicians want their effects and routines to be talked about. I don't think any magician would say that after they perform their routine or effect that they want it forgotten. when I saw eric's routine for dean's box at the taom (i think it was in dallas) it cause a lot of magicians to discuss and describe what they saw with each other. no one got erics permission and I don't think they needed to. |
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Tophie Loyal user 261 Posts |
I don't think that any of the impressionists received permission to apply the techniques of the Master Artists when creating there own versions of art.
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Gianni Special user WILMINGTON, DE 993 Posts |
I should just stay out of this, but I can't. As long as we dumb ones are being schooled for free by the gods of magic, why not take advantage of the lessons.
Truthteller asks this question: "Let's change the field of confrontation: Let's say you're a stand up comedian and you like someone's style, or one of their lines, and you take it and add it to your show - is that considered "ethical?" How would your peers react to this?" Now if I were a pro comedian and I heard another pro comedian using my jokes, I'd be livid. But with if I heard a guy telling my jokes around the dinner table? Is this the same taboo? Should I be outraged? What if I use Eric DeCamps routine for my cousins after Thanksgiving dinner? Am I still a scavenger? Gianni |
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teevtee Special user 963 Posts |
OK, I think I have a solution for all of this...
Quite simply, mime. What is a mime mimics the performance without actually uttering a word. This solves all problems, we get to see the act without actually discussing anything at all. With no spoken words surely we cannot pass along trade secrets. So from now on all such discussions shall be performed vie the art of mime. BRILLIANT! |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Tophie, magic is an art about secrets. why do we forget that basic fact?
Gino, There is a difference between discussing something after a show, and recording it for anyone to do whatever they would like. In that case, I think we should defer to the creator's wishes. Gianni, I cannot speak for Eric in that case, but I will speak for myself. I don't want anyone doing any of my work in any context unless I know about it, and have approved it. (Of course, that assumes someone might want to!) But let's look at it this way, you do my trick for your cousins and they come to my show. They say, "Hey, my cousin does that trick." I am now no longer special. You have taken that away from me. Now I'm just a guy like you. And you may be a great guy, and a fabulous performer. Which is why it is so important that I at least have my own materials to create my unique performances. I spent the time honing and practicing something unique. How can anyone in their right mind rationalize taking it for use in any context. Simply put, it's not yours!!! Of course you could argue that it is unlikely that your cousin will see me, but in almost every show I perform there's someone who is either a magician or is friends/relatives of a magician. But that's irrelevant. It's still not yours to use! Sadly, because so many people are all too willing to take and perform in both professional and private contexts, people like Eric have to be careful about how their material is recorded. Why should we make it harder on him? Shouldn't we be supporting him, shouldn't we stand by the rights of creators to control their material? Brad |
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ggarcia Veteran user San Antonio Tx 395 Posts |
A mimic is a copy therefore to mime is to mimic is to copy. to copy is to take something that is not yours and duplicate it. so..to mime is to mimic is to copy is to duplicate. to duplicate is to recreate something that may not be yours to duplicate. to mime is to mimic is to copy is to duplicate is to recreate. I am getting my feeble mind confused but to mime may still get you into trouble because it will be seen by others.
maybe we move to the stage in our own minds known as a "fantasy". if I fantasize myself doing the performance no will see or hear me do it therefore I will not be passing along any secrets. |
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teevtee Special user 963 Posts |
At the end of the road I have to say again, in a Utopian society Brad is correct, but we honestly do not live in that society or anything even close.
That fact may not give us the right to lift others material and in principle I totally agree with Brad but in reality people see performances and they talk about them and share them and enjoy them. I see nothing wrong with a magician wanting to view and enjoy another magicians act and that is really all this request was that started the thread. Brad, I simply think you are being too black and white, there is gray here. No one is arguing that it is wrong to steal other's acts or even to document them in some great detail without that person's permission. But surely you don't think it is improper to view another magicians act even if you yourself is a magician. Once you view that act are you really capable of purging it from your memory as to be sure it does not influence you and perhaps bits of it seep into your own act. Come on, we all are influenced and influence everything around us, and there is nothing wrong with that. Hell, this entire topic is about a routine based on someone else's trick! How much influence did Dean have on Eric? How much influence did other's have on Dean in the first place? (see other threads for that debate). We do not live in a vacuum, we will be influenced by other's work and that is OK. Watching a performance or even reading a description of one is not theft and in not taboo. Pretending that other's will not see your work or discuss it is just sticking your head in the sand. I truly do admire your principles as they are very high and worthy of respect but you have to view things from a tad more realistic podium. |
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stache New user 69 Posts |
Ggarcia,
"response: he take two ropes and puts them in the box and they come out linked...then all of a sudden he pulls a rabbit out of the box. to top it off the rabbit is wearing underwear." A rabbit wearing underwear???? I saw him perform his box routine at Abbott's close up convention a couple years back and I don't remember a rabbit at all. He must have changed up the piece quite a bit. Oh and by the way I have seen many stand up comedians and I have remembered and retold jokes from the performers that I liked to other people. Did I come up with the jokes? No. Am I stealing from them? Yes. Does this make them somehow less special if the people I told happen to see them later? No. Why, because the stand up comedians whose jokes I tell are professionals that have created, honed, and made these jokes a part of themselves. There is no way that I am going to tell the jokes as well as they do. I don't have the same mannerisms I don't have the same timing, and I don't possess the same level of familiarity with the material as they do. Have you ever wondered how a comedian can stand on stage and talk in a steady stream for so long? It's because they know what they are saying forwards and backwards, their jokes are pretty much muscle memory leaving them free to really connect with the audience on a more personal level. So, sure I can sit around the table at dinner and show my family a trick I saw someone else do and yeah they might be really amazed( well they better at least act like it, they are my family). Of course if they ever see the performer whose material it actually is perform it live, they aren't going to be saying "hey he's just like Stache." No, what they will be saying is "Wow!" Honestly in the long run I think I would come off looking like a hack. Now if I had to be completely honest I would say that Slydini stopped posting on this thread a while back. who knows maybe he is at Dean's website right now contemplating if he wants to buy the box or not. If I had to give him a little more advise I would say learn how to phrase questions better. Of course how you're going to learn that is by hanging out with older magicians, and at meetings, and at brick and mortar magic shops(remember them?) and occasionally, as Brad said, get smacked upside the head. that's just the way it is, a rite of passage if you will that later you will look back at with fondness and at least one wince of pain at the stupid things you said. I also think that sometimes you guys(on both sides of any issue) stare at this green background for too long and it starts to affect your mood and it gets you angry(I really can't believe I've looked at it long enough to post these comments). I mean I don't know about you guys but the main reason I got into magic wasn't to argue with other magicians, or for the money from performances, or to express my individuality; I got into it because it was fun. So I'm gonna go grab some cards and some coins maybe sit down with a book and have some fun playing. Who knows maybe I'll come up with something unique that I can call my own. Sorry for the sermon, I know you didn't want it or need it, I just needed to say it. Bye for now. |
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lockedroomguy New user New York, NY 65 Posts |
Stache,
I appreciate what you're saying overall - but you need to try different examples to convince me. If someone saw the original performer's routine after seeing yours, I agree they wouldn't say, "he's just like Stache." They would say "I've heard those jokes before." And in general the defense, "If I steal someone else's material I wouldn't perform it well because I don't know it as well," is just wrong in so many ways. Everyone, Having read the whole thread I can't see anywhere where Brad has been anything but right. To go back to the original post, if your purpose is to improve your own magic, then the only right ways to get information about a working performer's routine are: - buy a ticket - buy instructional materials authorized by the performer - ask the performer Many, many magical secrets, routines, lines, gags, and audience management ideas have been passed from one magician to another just because someone asked - but if your purpose is to borrow or build on the ideas then you ask the performer, not somebody else. Not only is it the right way to go about it, but also if the performer says yes you will be miles ahead. And if the performer says no, then who needs to agonize about moral or ethical dilemmas? One of your colleagues has asked you not to reuse his ideas. Would you reject his wishes? By the way I saw Eric perform this earlier this year at his New York show. The thing that delighted me about his Dean's Box routine was how he made such a "proppy" object seem so magical. Regards |
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Gianni Special user WILMINGTON, DE 993 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-12-01 10:28, lockedroomguy wrote: And that's where we disagree. The problem is not with the fundamental, general principle that one should not steal another's creative invention. The problem is in the application of the principle. My problem with truthteller in this thread and others is the unflinching immediacy of pouncing on people prematurely when there is even the spectre of misappropriation in the air. This is simply the methodology of a fanatic. We all agree in the principle of self-defense. But when do we pull the trigger? When a stranger knocks on our door asking for directions? When a Girl Scout rings our bell selling cookies? After all, how do we know we are not in danger? An intrusion into our home generally begins with someone walking up to our door. The question comes down to being reasonable, and I do not see reasonableness in truthteller's posts. I see dogmatic fanaticism and hardline fundamentalism. I ask truthteller and his sycophants: during the 1980's did you ever say, "You look mahvelous?" to make someone laugh? Or did you ever say, "I'm telling you I never get any respect." Or "alrightyyyyy then." Well if you said any of these things then you are a thief by your own standards. You did not write those lines. They belong to Billy Crystal and Rodney Dangerfield and Jim Carrey. You cannot say anything to anyone unless you personally created it. My, my what a terrible world we should live in. So sanitized. Nothing to build on from others no matter how small. I reject a world of fanaticism, and hard, bright line tests. There is a story in the news today. It is about a teacher whose schoolchildren named a toy Teddy bear after a classmate named Muhammad. That teacher was arrested and faced lashings for defaming a religious prophet. She was ultimately jailed and deported for this infraction. I believe it has become a news story because we find it incredible that any government would be that strict, unflinching and unreasonable. That's what I see in this thread. Gianni |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Gianni,
It's always fun to watch people try and rationalize theft. A character's catch phrase is a different animal from a working performer's original performance piece. Likewise, making a conversational reference to a known cultural entity is a different act from doing a show. Case in point, mimicking Tommy Cooper's "just like that" at the dinner table hurt no one - AFTER IT HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED TO BE TOMMY'S! However to take elements of his act and use them without his permission would have. If a magician took Tommy's phrase and used it in his show, what would we think of him? Clever, creative, of thief? Tommy was unique - let's let him keep that, or is that too much to ask? Likewise, in your example, we are talking about phrases that are universally known to belong to someone. They are part of the pop culture. To use them is essentially to tap into a larger meaning, they are cultural references. Not the same as doing a show. (But yes, if you use them and think you are clever, you are deluded!) When you do Eric's routine at your dinner table, or your friend's daughter's Blue and Gold Banquet, or for your buddies at the local ring - they don't know that it's someone else's work. YOU are now associated with a piece that you have no right to be associated with. And as lockedroom pointed out, if they ever see the real creator, that experience is diminished because of YOUR actions. Besides, do you really believe that using another person's show to build your own is the right thing to do? Ever? Shouldn't the creator get to decide who uses his own work? Finally, no one says you can't build on someone else's work. I'm saying that you either wait until they release it OR you ask permission first. We are not entitled to every thought someone else has. We are entitled only to our own thoughts. Let's respect each other's thoughts and leave them to their thinkers. And yes, when we see people who are about to do damage to someone else's work (by requesting it be published in detail without permission) we should say something. If no one had, what would have happened and do you think that would have been fair to Eric? Brad |
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Gianni Special user WILMINGTON, DE 993 Posts |
Truthteller:
I continue to find your position overly strict and confining. You step into a matter when someone merely asks how a routine looks. You try to thwart people from knowing things that are happening in plain view. You interfere with questions when you think they might move down an improper path. In short, you anticipate impropriety and punish it before it happens. (I think there was a sci fi movie with Tom Cruise called the Minority Report that had that as a basis: the mind police saw crime before it occurred and arrested people.) In addition to your anticipatory conviction and punishment, you don't even yield a de minimis exception to your "theft" rule. An after dinner hobbyist's performance for his family is still off limits because it is statistically possible for those people to see your show. Please. Finally, how do catchphrases and cultural entities become such without being embraced and repeated by people? At what point has a catch phrase been sufficiently imprinted on society's brain before it is fair for someone to use without being branded a thief. I'm sure you'll tell us because you know the answer. Gianni |
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tdowell Inner circle 1050 Posts |
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......................
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