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teevtee Special user 963 Posts |
While I tend to agree that this conversation has run it's course and there is not much else new to say I still do not understand what the above comment added.
Just ignore the thread if you find it dull. And yes, I know, I could of just ignored your post but oh well. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
The original post was inappropriate. Part of becoming a magician is learning not to do what the original poster asked. Period.
The original poster, perhaps, did not know that and now he does. Done! So, yes, asking publicly for information about exactly how a trick looks, each step of the way, is wrong. Now he knows. He should ask the creator. Perhaps he will. Now we're done.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Gianni,
Let's find out who we are really dealing with. Please answer these 4 questions for me: 1) Do you believe you have the right to perform someone else's material in any context, and if so, what are those contexts? 2) Do you seriously believe that your performance of someone else's original material (or anyone's) in any context is good for that person, if so, how? 3) Do you believe that an artist has the right to control how their original material is used? Finally, I asked Slydini why he wanted to know Eric's routine. He replied he wanted to take Eric's ideas and add his own to them. Those were his words. So, 4) do you think that you have the right to use another person's performance material as the basis of your own work? I am sincerely curious, Gianni, what to you really believe - as an artist, as a person. |
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ggarcia Veteran user San Antonio Tx 395 Posts |
Let it go...
youre not going to change anyone's mind. you have your ideas and others have theirs. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
I have received several emails and PMs from people expressing utter bewilderment at the rationalization of theft these posts endorse. I too am confused. I would love to understand how it is someone can look at this situation (or situations like it) and think: Gee, I see nothing wrong with lifting someone else's work!
I hope Gianni will answer my questions and that I may better understand what type of person sees no problem in these behaviors. I truly am curious. Nothing would prove more rewarding for me than for this thread to help explain how others have come to the beliefs they have. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Pepople that rationalize here are just hoping that they can persuade others that rationalize to chime in and make them feel less guilty.
It's too bad.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Steven Conner Inner circle 2720 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-11-30 23:17, truthteller wrote: Brad, I want to be carefull not to start another issue, but I have a situation that is very similar to your illustration. By way of example, I was doing the Sylvester Pitch long before he was performing. He made a video which is quite good and has/is making money from it. While it is recorded, I was still doing before. I'm not bent out of shape over it, but when I use it, its not the SP, its just my move. As a card man, as well as many other cardmen, I have independently discovered certain moves. The fact that an individual never recorded it, to whom does it belong? It's a matter of ethics and professionalism. The Media records everyday things that do not belong to them. They don't care. If they(the Media)saw Eric and wanted to publish what they had witnessed, they would do so and the whole world would know. It is impossible to protect our every fiber. I agree with you 100% about protecting our secrets. I agree that we should honor our magical colleagues presentation, but keep in mind, the great Fred Kaps created very little. It is much better for this to be discussed here on this Forum than in US Today. By the way, speakers steal more things than anyone. Bottom line, don't steal tham aim to create that which is original. Steve
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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Brandon Beauchesne New user 8 Posts |
Uhh...for what it's worth I just posted a video on youtube of me performing erics routine to the T. http://www.youtube.com/ericsroutine...problem solved.
-JK |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Eric took Dean Dill's creation and is performing out in public paid shows instead of at home for his own enjoyment?
Someone should tell Dean Dill.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Gianni Special user WILMINGTON, DE 993 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-12-01 19:59, truthteller wrote: I would think that my prior posts reflect my thoughts. Like many others on this thread, I think it has gone on too long. There's no more that can be added productively. Gianni |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Chris,
Eric paid for the trick. It's his right. When you pay Eric for his routine, then you can do it too! Steven, you bring up a great point. If you truly discovered the move on your own, then you of course have the right to use it. If you can establish that you had it first, then it's common to contact the other person and let them know. This is more for their own benefit and (it's been my experience) someone who cares about the real history of the ideas will often credit you as an independent creator whenever they teach it. But the commonly accepted rule of thumb is that credit goes to the person who put it in print first (assuming, they created it and did not lift it!) Fred is an interesting example. While he did not create a lot, the material he did perform was published, or taught to him by friends. He then perfected it far beyond anyone had imagined. Sadly, people then took his act - his work - and used it as a smorgasboard for their own acts. Even if the material was in print, it is Fred's vision they were lifting, and I feel that is wrong. Not everyone does, but I do. But, to conclude, there is nothing wrong with using your own vision to discover tricks in print (or for sale) and honing them to perfection. Using someone else's act as your "research method" is a low thing to do. I realize people get touchy on this subject, but I feel that it's an important one and appreciate the dialog (even when it's passionate). |
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pepka Inner circle Uh, I'm the one on the right. 5041 Posts |
I'm surprised Eric didn't jump in here. (Did he?) Shortly after this started, he emailed me and corrected me that his routine for the box is 7 phases, not 3 like Dean's routine. (My Bad!) What really stood out to me was his presentation which really makes it a masterpiece. I think the debate has been settled, but I have to agree with Frank and others. It's not right to ask about someone else's routine in the open. I don't think Eric has ever had it published, and may never intend to as long as he's using it professionally. I don't create a lot of my magic, but I write a lot of presentations that fit me personally. I have given a few to friends, but I really prefer to keep most of them to myself. You can't blame someone for doing this.
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Ustaad Inner circle Iindia - States 6157 Posts |
Goodnight all.
MAGIC is a SECRET, without the SECRET there is no MAGIC.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-12-02 16:09, Christopher Kavanagh wrote: This was a joke. I love when they take the bait and go under the boat.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Andy the cardician Inner circle A street named after my dad 3362 Posts |
Oh . . . , then I should recall my mail to Dean
Cards never lie
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-12-03 19:11, Andy the cardician wrote: LOL!!! Good man!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Ruminations New user Steven Schneiderman 1 Post |
I have greatly enjoyed this thread for two primary reasons.
First, I know what it is like to spend years developing your ideas and routines only to have someone else put their spin on them and take all the credit for them. It happened over three decades ago to me, and it still gets my goat when I think about it! Back when I was a naive youth, I gave a manuscript of my material to a better established magician. A few years later he published his own book with many of my routines in it. He made quite a reputation with them. Then he released a commercial effect which was also based on another one of my ideas. And I never received any credit whatsoever. Zippo. Nada. Zilch. And he was an SAM award winner for close-up, folks. Second, I have great admiration for Mr. DeCamps -- and the fact that he is one of my oldest friends, was the best man at my wedding, and is listed in my will as a guardian for my children in the event of my death -- none of this has any bearing on my admiration for him. For despite the length of time we have known each other, Eric still keeps much of his routines and creations secret from me. While at times I find this very annoying and a tad insulting -- surely Eric can trust me -- he understands that what he has spent time developing is special and the integrity must be maintained -- even at the cost of holding his dear friend at arm's length from the "real work". Bottom line: I respect him. And others should, too. And we as magicians need to show greater respect for each other. For whatever it's worth, and wherever this thread is going, I agree with Brad.
Publish your next magic book electronically at EbookoMatic.com!
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
I hear dean dill has a good routine with the box, and sells this =D seriously why not just check out some of the old steward james handlings and make some methods up your self with the knowledge
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Chris, The sad thing about the internet is you never know if someone is being serious or not. And I'm not talking about tone - I'm talking about content. If someone came on here and seriously advocated what you did, would it really surprise any of us?
Pepka, sent you a PM. B |
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Texas36 New user 92 Posts |
I have been thinking of doing the effect with two sausages and calling it Jimmy Dean's box. I would probably get a letter from a lawyer so I guess I better not.
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