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10cardsdown Special user Out There Somewhere 664 Posts |
I placed a reply on the thread The Classic Force quite recently. The discussion centered around the mechanics of the force. I posed the question: What do you use the force with? Everyone continually posted replies dealing with mechanics. So I posed the same question in another phrase. Again, it was avoided. I pleaded with the magi bretheren to give me reasons or routines to force a card. With the exception of Lance Pierce, EVERYONE bailed on this thread.
What amazes me is this: as long as this discussion centered around the mechanics of the force, or any force, there was tons of dialogue. Everyone wanted to put their two cents in on the mechanics of the force. Once the discussion turned to the "why" of the force or the "uses" of the force, almost EVERYONE has bailed off of the ship. No dialogue at all. Is everyone out there simply working on mechanics or sleights without an arena to use them in? Would this be time productive or time consuming? My summation is this: Are we learning, practicing, refining and communicating on sleights that we aren't using? What are the means to the end? It seems to me that when we have some wonderful, useful information (like knowing the name of the selected card), there are unbelievable avenues to explore with this information. I would love to see some dialogue on one of two subjects. 1) What do we do with useful information when we get it (like knowing the name of a selected card), and 2) Why are we so bound up with only knowing and understanding the mechanics rather than the routine on how they can help? I look forward to seeing everyone's interpetation of this subject. |
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Geoff Weber Inner circle Washington DC 1384 Posts |
I looked at the thread you're referring to, and after posting your query you got at least 9 replies. I wouldn't exactly say that people were bailing on that topic. Your premise here that because you feel you didn't get enough replies, we are all just working on mechanics with no substantial application is a bit off base.
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10cardsdown Special user Out There Somewhere 664 Posts |
Correct you are, however, if you look at the posts, almost everyone avoided the question of WHY we need to force a card. There were several replies on the mechanics, but virtually nobody offered suggestions, ideas or REASONS of why we need to force a card.
This has led me to believe that a huge percent of magicians are enamoured with the sleights with nowhere to use them. If my statement that "we are all just working on mechanics with no substantial application is a bit ridiculous" is your feeling, then someone explain to me why everyone simply wants to have dialogue on mechanics only with no avenue to use them? |
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Otis Day Regular user Green Bay, WI 150 Posts |
They gave you trick references and discussed how sometimes knowing the name of the card doesn't matter. Just because you forced the card doesn't mean that it MUST be used that way(how else can you practice). It seems you didn't like the responses you got, so you've mad a big generalization based on it. Go back and look at your original posts on this question...if you read, you can find the answers to your questions. Chicago Surprise is a great one (already mentioned the first time) and if the force fails, that's OK too! Ashes on arm is something laymen remember too.
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John McCormack Regular user 130 Posts |
Maybe they feel dealing cards perfectly from the center of the deck with one hand is a rite of passage, they don't see the usefulness or potential of the sleight, they practice it because they feel it's a move that says they are serious about magic (card magic in paticular), which btw, is not magic, it's a sleight, and for sleights sake.
To be honest, I've stopped practicing second deals and bottom deals among other things and/or using an easier or more practical method, in-the-hands perfect faro instead of a perfect table faro, in fact, I have no routines that use a faro, for me the faro was a fairly simple thing to learn. I picked it up in a day thanks to Harry Lorayne so it's no big deal. I doubt I will ever perfect Faro again table or otherwise, unless I have a purpose to do so. Not to say the faro doesn't have any good uses, the type of effects produced with a faro (that I've read/seen so far) don't suit the type of effects I perform. I don't have any uses for these moves at the moment and probably never will. I'm not saying that they're useless, I honestly don't know what the versatility of a second deal is. Whether it's because it just hasn't been explored enough to understand its real potential and uses in one thing, practicing it because you won't be accepted as a card man by others in another thing. However, if you practice certain things because you enjoy a challenge and get a feeling of accomplishment when you master them, then that is fine. But remember, that's not magic, that's sleights for sleights sake and is a different ball game all together. But if you do have a routine that uses a certain move then by all means it should be practiced to perfection. Personelly, I have started to use the method I find most efficient and most practical for the effect I want produce. IMO, I will use whatever means necessary to create real magic, if that means mastering a certain sleight then I'll practice and use the sleight, if the gimmick has a bigger advantage over a sleight then I'll use that. Bear in mind it takes presentation to bring a trick (whatever the method) to life. But I would never go as far as to say "Presentation is everything". As for a classic force, I've read many fine tricks using it. It could also be used in place of a control and peek if you need to know a selected card (why would you need to know a selected card? You tell me you're the one doing the routine. I have a few reasons for knowing a selected card in advance, I also have a couple of reasons for forcing a card when not using it in place of a control and peek). If you can do a classic force then this is much more efficient that using a control and a peek, it is also much cleaner. Btw, the only way to learn the Classic force is to do it, so I hope people aren't practicing it alone in the bedroom. This shows they are putting it to use, unless they force a card in every pick-a-card situation just to learn the move, that's a little silly, unless they have a use in mind for it. Or maybe it's useful to know some moves so you can create your own effects or routines with them. Just my thoughts and opinons. Take it easy, John. |
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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts |
Hi, 10Cards!
I think where we might run into trouble is that there are all kinds of reasons that people practice magic. There are some, like yourself, who are pragmatic and discerning about how they spend their time and energy (and, granted, it doesn't make the best sense -- in purely logical terms -- to work on things you'll never use). There are others, though, who are fascinated with different aspects than we are, such as sleights or technique. Some apply what they learn in performance situations…others simply never perform…some fall in between. What your question butts into is the issue of motivation -- WHY we do magic, and since people are going to be all over the map on that one, your question will be greeted with relief by some (at finding someone who finally thinks in practical terms), with irritation by others (who wonder why someone is questioning their approach to magic), and perhaps with no feedback at all from most (some of whom may simply not understand why you have the question in the first place). Personally, I love the question. As one who is more fascinated these days with the applications of sleights than with purely the sleights themselves, this is the kind of conversation I can fall into. However, I admit that I also practice moves that I know I'll never use, because I have a fascination with understanding them. What makes the S.W.E. Shift work, for instance, and why am I wholly unsatisfied with my execution of it? What is it about the Christ One-handed Shift that intrigues me, and can it ever be practical for me? Hey, how about THIS variation of the Diagonal Palm Shift today? So, your post isn't ridiculous; it's only ridiculous to some people because they're working from a different context. To more directly address what we can do with the Classic Force, I think one thing we might want to look for are ways of discovering the selected card in which your possibly knowing the card doesn't seem like it would help you in finding it. Let's take this hypothetical effect: A card is selected and noted from a borrowed deck. The performer turns around as the spectator notes the card. Let's say it's the three of diamonds. While still turned away, he hands the deck to the spectators, and the spectator returns the card to the deck himself. Then he shuffles the deck. Turning back around, the performer takes the deck and begins dealing cards one at a time. At any time the spectator says stop. The performer stops dealing and says, "You mean right here…on your card…the three of diamonds?" Only then does the performer turn over the card to show that it is indeed the selection. Yes, a standard stop trick, but here the conditions are very strong, particularly when the spectator returns the card and shuffles the deck himself. The fact that the performer names the card before turning it over could add to the mystery here, and it wouldn't in any way explain how the spectator stopped on the right card. The proposed method is to take a borrowed deck and do a turn-around glimpse noting the bottom card. Then nail-nick it or edge mark it in some way. Classic force the card and turn away. Hand the spectator the deck. Let him return the card. Let him shuffle. Take the deck, spot your nail-nick and cut or somehow position the card near the top. Do a quick spread to note the number from the top, say…ten. Then start dealing, using a psychological force (with outs, if necessary) to effect the standard stop trick at this point. Now, assuming the method is workable (which I think it is), what must the spectator think? Is this the kind of thing you're looking for? Cheers, Lance p.s. Wow. In the time it took me to write this, two other people posted. People work fast around here! |
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mitrof New user Sunny South Florida 54 Posts |
Hi Lance,
Depending on the presentation, the spectator might likely think that you somehow 'influenced' him/her to stop on the selected card with the power of your mind. If this is the case, wouldn't this fall into one of the categories that I posted in the other thread? 10cardsdown: Enlighten us with an example. -Frank |
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10cardsdown Special user Out There Somewhere 664 Posts |
I must say that John McCormick and Lance Pierce have posted WONDERFUL replies to this question!!!!!!!!!!
First, I must admit that I totally agree with John. We are magicians, we should magish. The perfect execution of a sleight does not make one a magician. As entertainers we must present the material well, and as magicians we must fool. A fancy, flippidy floppidy cut that no one else has the ability to perform is not magic. That's why I love Roger Klause's quote: "fool the mind, not the eye". And yes John, if you can fool them with the easiest of execution, then why not? Lance, you always amaze me! Your posts are genuine and well thought out. You also are wonderful at articulating the vocubulary in ways that are very understanding. You are correct, there are several arenas of performers. Some are only interested in learning a sleight to perfection without the "want" to perform it within the context of a routine. Do we learn a sleight and build a routine around it or do we build a routine and then find the sleight that fits it? I believe in practicality and believe sleights should be explored and practiced, but if they have no use for performance, then I'm not interested in them. So as you say, I'm offering this thread from this angle of usefulness. You two are great! Great posts and great dialogue. I hope the train keeps running and gets everyone thinking, posting great ideas. In fact, I'm hopeful to learn tons within this arena. |
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
I would like to answer to the question posed in the title of this thread.
Wandering on any magic convention or place where magicians hang out, one would say yes, they are only working on sleights. I remember working a week at the Magic Castle where 90 % of the visitors would be busy with showing and talking about their latest technical accomplishments. No presentations, no routines, no tricks, only sleigths.(Without wanting to insult anyone, I always refer to myself to these people as the "cardtechnicians") Since I worked hard on a presentation that would make sense and would be different in style and theme for the close-up gallery, it was rather awkward to have such little contact with this 90 %. I realised I had nothing to interest them from a technical point of view. Such a thing could make you turn sour yes... If it weren't for the other 10 % who I connected to. These were the female (non magician) spouses and invitees. But also people who seemed to be beyond the technical obsessions. I remember John Carney sitting in the front row, David Regal, Max Maven, Dean Dill, James Lewis, Pete Biro, Andrew Goldenhersh... Beside the (obligatory) compliments all of them gave me wonderful comments and suggestions on how to improve my thing, asked me for motivations why I did things and some even gave me material to improve. It made me very proud to get acknowledged by these kind gentlemen. I think talking about the deeper and more esoteric layers of magic defenitely has it's place. However it does not surprise me that the best place to do this is not the realm of the "cardmechanics". And before anyone jumps on me by saying they are not obsessed with card technique and method, please, I do not want to generalise. I know you are out there. I know there are a lot of caring and discerning people who really want to make their performances as magical as possible... But I second 10cardsdown, strolling a magicians forum they seem to be small in number.
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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John McCormack Regular user 130 Posts |
Hello 10cardsdown,
It's nice to know that the time and thought I put into some of my posts is appreciated sometimes. I must say though that everything I say is just my opinion, nothing more. Not everyone will agree, nor will my opinion be suited to everyone. And I don't want it to be, but I would like people to accept my POV and appreciate where I'm coming from, as I do theirs. It is nice when somebody agrees with your opinion, and I'm happy that we think alike. But remeber this is just our opinions and of course will not be suited to everyone. And then there are those that think their way is the only way, the only thing I have to say to them is try not to be so narrow minded. It's fine to have different thoughts about magic, there no wright or wrong ways, but there are effective and ineffective ways. Whatever works for you. As far as flourishes go, they are not magic, but they can be used with magic (I'm not going to go into my reasons why now because that's another ball game, I will if you like go into that if you ask, I just don't want to go into all those nuances typing essays that nobody will bother to read beacuse of their length). I personelly have stopped using flourishes, because I want to create something that looks and feels like real magic to my spectator(s). I don't want it to look like an expert card manipulator, although there's nothing wrong with that that's a worthy and reputable persona, it's just not the one I've chosen or the vision I'm trying to follow. Take it easy, John. Btw, 10cardsdown. Read the first part of your original post again, something wrong maybe? Did you notice it? Take it easy, John. |
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10cardsdown Special user Out There Somewhere 664 Posts |
Thanks John for catching that. I've edited it to read correctly now. Have a great day!
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marko Inner circle 2109 Posts |
In that original thread, I assumed if someone was inquiring about the Classic Force that they already had a use in mind for it. I never learn sleights without knowing I'll have a use for them in the context of an effect. But if you would like to know, then here are the effects I do regularly in which a card force is utilized (and which force is used):
The Reformation (Hofsinzer under-the-spread) The Frog Prince (same) Red Hot Mama (Hindu) The Anything Deck (Riffle) Side-Swiped (Cross-cut)
Thought: Why does man kill? He kills for food. And not only food: frequently there must be a beverage.
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Check out Greg Wilsons video card stunts he has wonderful effects using the classic force
let me say that a serious musician practices hours on hours just scales to get his fingers moving so he or she will be able to play difficult passages. this is why magacians practice slights to do moves without thinking . vinny |
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John McCormack Regular user 130 Posts |
Also,
The more you play with cards the more your fingers will adapt to the feel of them, thus your ability to handle a deck of cards and take on any sleight wil be that much easier. Just a thought, doesn't apply to me though. John. |
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Jeff Hinchliffe Loyal user Toronto, ON Canada 280 Posts |
Hmm, I'd like to give some of my thoughts on this issue.
First off, while this is a "magician board" I bet that many of the members are not professional magicians, but rather hobbyists. Since most hobbyists do not perform magic, they would obviously focus more on the mechanics of sleights rather than a useful context to execute them in. I know, because I was a hobbyist. And while it's not true for all hobbyists, it has been my observation that it is a fair generalization. Second, you asked if we first learn sleights, then find an applicable context for them, or if we do things the opposite way, finding sleights to suit contexts. I feel that we should and do approach magic in the former manner. I feel this way for two reasons: 1) It is much easier. There is a finite limit to which mechanics can be used, and that limit is based on ones physical abilities or dexterity; presentations, on the other hand, are only limited by our imagination, which is virtually limitless. It seems therefore much easier to build a presentation upon sleights rather than to build sleights on a presentation. 2) Since a presentation involves both the performer and the spectator, it seems logical that more effort should be exerted into this realm of the performance. It then seems fair that in order to exert extra effort into the presentation, you would need to have the mechanics of the trick almost seem like second nature. This explains the constant practice of technique, flawless technique allows for flawless presentation, you might say. Third, there is a very good reason for the existence of so-called "card technicians." Most of the card technique that exists today comes from these technicians. They give us our arsenal and it is up to us to find a good use for it. Let's be honest, Ed Marlo wasn't the greatest entertainer in the world, but I bet that most professional magicians, at least the ones that perform card tricks, utilize at least one technique that he developed. Fourthly, many professional magicians are secretive. Many feel that the presentations and contexts in which they utilize these moves are their own, and therefore do not wish to share them. That is completely understandable. If you make a living off of these effects, then it seems fair that you wouldn't want to share them with everyone. Just some of my thoughts... Jeff Hinchliffe P.S. please do not misconstrue my tone when I said "card technicians" as I meant no disrespect or disapproval towards anyone.
Pick a card, any card...
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Hideo Kato Inner circle Tokyo 5649 Posts |
Only Lance Pierce?
Please don't overlook the posts by shania, EvanAndrews, mitrof and Hideo Kato in sak07's thread "Classic Force". They expanined enough reason for us to master Classic Force. Hideo Kato |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Hello 10
Discussions of what to do and how it looks to an audience are very far from the more theatrical discussions of plot and motivation. A classic force, regardless of context is a way to spread the cards before someone and have them take the card you want them to by putting it into their fingers. When discussing the mechanics there is little need to refer to context. Like walking. You can walk in the kitchen and you can walk on the beach. When discussing walking one need not refer to your trip to the fridge for a soda or the sand between your toes on the beach. Walking is supposed to work in both cases.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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10cardsdown Special user Out There Somewhere 664 Posts |
There's been some wonderful discussion on this topic, and I most commend everyone for staying with the trip and not bailing off. Thanks everyone!
I think we've identified several things. First, all of us are into sleight of hand magic for different reasons. Mine in particular is to create routines that can be performed. I use sleights as the means to the end to complete the routine, not vice versa. Which leads me to this statement: If I can create a routine with virtually no moves and still entertain and fool, then I'll go that direction. I don't have a need to execute the most difficult of sleights to feel self satisfaction. My goal is to fool and I'll do that with whatever method works. Others feed off of the need to learn, work, disect and create sleights. And as stated earlier, that's okay. To each their own. So we've simply identified that there are different strokes for different folks. My main motivation for the beginning of this thread is to get those that are interested thinking in a certain direction. To identify why we use certain sleights. And can certain sleights be replaced without sacrificing the effect? I believe the answer is YES. Not in all circumstances, but in many. All of this began with the simple question: Why do we force a card and what do we do with the information after we know the card? I'd like to address these questions with my thoughts now. Some have touched on this and many have missed on some avenues of use. First, I must state as was stated in an earlier reply, I don't believe forcing a card on someone and telling them what they have chosen is magic. That simply is telling them that you have the ability to know what card they are using. * You can take the knowledge of the spectators card (forced or glimpsed) and create a form of mentalism with it. A specific effect that comes to mind is that of the spectator dealing the cards as you hold your hand on their wrist and feel their pulse. You simply state that you felt their pulse rate increase when they dealt their card. * One note on the force of a card. After a card has been forced, a nice touch is to hand the deck to the spectator and let them shuffle the deck. You know the card, let them shuffle until their heart's content. Use jazz magic to find the card and control it. Or at that point, you could go into the pulse trick. * If the card you force is also a crimped card, you can allow the spectator to shuffle the cards, then quickly find the card via the crimp. Both of these avenues are very strong in the spectator's mind. * The force card can either be or become a key card to be utilized with an effect that requires a key card. * The force card can become a key card for a position at a particular number. i.e. it can be positioned at a certain number down from the top of the deck. The deck can be turned face up to show the cards are well mixed, obtain a break at the force/key card, turn the deck face down maintaining a break and have the selection replaced next to it. * When a selection is made, always force the card so you know the name of it. As is listed in Outs, Precautions and Challenges, you know the name of the card should you lose your break or control over the card. * The force of a card can be utilized to reveal a prediction set aside earlier. * The force of a card can be utilized for a specific effect to reveal a card at a later time such as Red Hot Mama (Chicago Opener). * Alan Ackerman has a wonderful routine of a prediction coupled with a selection (?) in Here's My Card. * Certain Ambitous Card routines require the force of the selection for the final phase. i.e. If the selection was a 4, then the final rise would bring the other three 4's to the top. * A nice touch for the Classic Force is to force the card from a face up deck. Ask the spectator to touch a card, then place it to the table face up. Turn the deck face down and ribbon spread it to reveal a blue deck. Turn the selection (?) over to reveal a red back. * The Moving Pencil effect from Harry Lorayne is simply a force of a card. Yet the effect is sooooooooooo strong compared to the simplicity of the form of the force. This list has been a start of the USES of a force card. I love it when many make posts that "there are several uses for a force in magic books", yet they leave no actual use. Maybe this list will reveal some uses for a force card to some who have not thought of it in this way before. And better yet, maybe it will lead others to provide their list of USES with a forced card. And yes, if you want to include the Insurance Policy, then go ahead. Thanks again to everyone for jumping in and providing some great dialogue on this subject. |
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Vernon Almond New user 2 Posts |
Hello 10 Cards,
A very interesting thread indeed. In the past I have spent many hours practicing sleights which I never use in the real world. I never did learn the classic force and opted for more "move generated" forces, such as Sanky's "Wichita Slip" ect. (Hey I am from Wichita). However as of late I have preferred to use the the spectator peek method after the spectator has shuffled the deck. As we all know there are many avenues one take take after the peek. In my opinion (ya know what they say about opinions), the spectator peek is a low ratio on work and high on effect. I go back and reread Brother Hamman's statements which in essence state the magic happens in the minds of the spectator not in the fingers. Now I am going off to practice the classic pass........ Take care all
Vernon Almond
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Mike Walton Special user Chicago 984 Posts |
[quote]On 2003-02-26 10:44, 10cardsdown wrote:
...All of this began with the simple question: Why do we force a card and what do we do with the information after we know the card? _____________________________________________ I believe the more appropriate question to be, "What do we do with the information about the card before we force it?" That's the big picture purpose of forcing a card-to insure card X gets selected as we have already planned something with that information or with their selection. In my case, I've only forced a card when I need the spectator to choose a gaffed card for a certain effect, or to select a specific card that is somehow presented in a different manner or location later on in the effect. The force, for me at least, is used to create the "buy-in" from the spectator as he believes he is freely choosing a card, freely taking the next step in a planned progression of steps that is necessary for the effect. To address the final topic of why learn sleights, not routines...I believe most who have posted on the original "force" thread DO know effects, routines, etc. with forces or other sleights. The way I learned is I received material, either books, DVDs, etc. Read or viewed the effect, then learned the components and sleights (as well as presentation, misdirection etc.) But that's beginner level. It's very similar to how someone initially learns to play a music instrument. Learn to hold the instrument, practice scales, look at a song, play, look at song, play, etc.. NOW, and the original force thread is a great example, magic practicioners are more advanced and are researching other methods, maybe not for an effect as they already know a suitable sleight, but for inspiration on how to create new effects, new sleights, and to strengthen existing sleights and routines. Many jazz musicians play without music. They play without written sheet music, especially if they're improvising and writing new music. Paintings are created with hundreds, thousands of hand blended colors. Why limit oneself to a crayola crayon box of 8? My Best, Mike |
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