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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Three tries to get it right/ mano tejera (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Zhang
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I just spoke to mano on the phone and told him about the comments, and he agree the routine is confusing and that he was going to remove the clip.

Wu.
Jaz
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That's what makes Mano the great guy that he is.
He listens to opinions and responds like a gentleman.

The idea of the coins messing with him is a really nice idea and the patter was fun. I too felt it was a little long and confusing. It can be a very good routine and I'm sure Mano can make it so.

Only my best to Mano.
vinsmagic
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GUYS REMEMBER MANO IS DOING THIS FOR A CAMERA NOT ALIVE AUDIENCE...
ANYHOW his effet does not use gimmicks of any kind and thbis is what is so amazing.
vinny
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Jaz
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Vin,
Interacting with a live audience would make a difference.
As far as Mano's techniques go, he excels.
I'm grateful for Mano sharing his work and he has said more than once that he appreciates comments and opinions.
Dan Watkins
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I think sometimes it is okay to have routines that are a bit chaotic. Gary Kurtz coin magic in some ways was like this, the magic would keep hitting you over and over and over in a "Full Frontal Assault" to where you were kind of along for the ride. Gary's magic tended to be a bit more fast paced in doing so however.

Some of Kainoa Harbottle's routines have a level of rapid controlled chaos to them as well.

When I saw the video, it wasn't really so much bothered by the structure (though I did feel the pacing did languish on a bit), but the fact that both hands start out in front and to me look like he is holding something inside. So when the coins start appearing, to me it just looked like revealing coins that were held inside the hand.

Only when three coins are held in a fan, could he would then show one hand truely empty, but he couldn't do so with the other hand. He made gestures with the back of his hand that was holding out toward the camera, which I felt focused attention on the fact that he did not want to show inside the hand. (In other words I think it did the opposite of what was intended).

The hard part of doing coin magic with fistfulls of coins is that I think you need to be able to show both hands empty at some point during the routine. If the audience is not satisfied that the hands are empty, then producing objects from them might look technically impressive (as people have mentioned), but not be magical.

I'm not trying to say this is unique to Mano's routine because I struggle with this too. I think everyone does to some extent because for most routines you need to hold out coins. Personally, I like to try the best I can to build in moments you can show both hands empty in relatively short periods of time.

If you can make the audience really think that your hands were empty, it really makes productions more powerful.

In a way, it's the same "3 Fly" issue using 4 coins. If people suspect the 4th coin, it lessens the magic of the effect. If you can build in ways to show without a doubt only 3 coins in play, it strengthens the magic of the effect.
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Jaz
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"The hard part of doing coin magic with fistfulls of coins is that you need to be able to show both hands empty sometimes during the routine."

Maybe I shouldn't take this so literally.
I can understand making it appear that your hands hold nothing but don't feel it necessary to actually show empty palms or hands.

I'm not suggesting to not do as Dan suggests just that there seems to be a trend for over proving when it's not necessary.
Mb217
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Y'know, not for nothing here, I really felt that one of the more recent vid routines posted of Claudia was a bit too long. I actually couldn't finish watching it as it went on for so very long. I wasn't confused at all by it and it was pretty good stuff as I saw it but just too long. Her original 3-Fly vid (which had no talking at all) was just perfect for me and her best work IMHO. But the routines where she is telling stories or talking to the stuffed animals, etc., always hits me as being just too much story. Just my view but her work is still very good and I enjoy watching her. Smile

I'm sure Mano will do whatever he thinks best as to his routines. He's got some great chops to be able to so casually handle coins the way he does, the ones you see and those invisible ones you don't see until he materializes them. Smile Anyway, he's got a lot to work with and is clearly on the right tracks. Good luck Mano, I'm always cheering for you my friend. Smile


*Oh and Dan, also as to your thoughts about holding out coins and bringing them into play, showing hands empty etc., I really like the way Sylvester The Jester conquered all that with his Sylvester's Pitch (Took a small page out of his book in my own work, Mano's too). Smile You never know what's coming at you and every time it's a real surprise, from one hand to the other, from one coin to many coins, to even an apple or maybe a large hex-nut. Smile He truly amazes with that thing unlike any one else I have ever seen in regards to coin management and transit. Brilliant stuff that he can bring into play at varying paces and tempos! As I remember it, I think(?) he also does a 3-Fly effect using this method, solves a lot of problems when you can move coins around like him. Smile

And finally, this quote "Confusion is not magic," I've heard before strangely in reference to Sylvester and even Mickey Silver...So my friend Mano is in great company I'd say and definitely on some ultra-creative right tracks...Smile I personally have never been confused in watching them, unless I'm confused in my understanding of what truly being amazed is all about. And I don't think so. Smile -Mb
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


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Dan Watkins
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Quote:
On 2007-12-06 17:47, Jaz wrote:
"The hard part of doing coin magic with fistfulls of coins is that you need to be able to show both hands empty sometimes during the routine."

Maybe I shouldn't take this so literally.
I can understand making it appear that your hands hold nothing but don't feel it necessary to actually show empty palms or hands.

I'm not suggesting to not do as Dan suggests just that there seems to be a trend for over proving when it's not necessary.


Actually, I am being literal. However, I am not advocating over-proving. Just using a casual gesture so people can see the empty hand, not shoving the hand down their throat.

Now, I do know that sometimes methods dictate that it is impossible to show the hands empty, and you have to do your best to make the hands appear empty, but I think spectator's are often much more observant than we might give them credit for.

If they even think you are holding coins, then the magic is lessened.

Take a look at Geoff Latta's "A Trick with 3 Coins" as an example that comes to mind of casually showing empty hands during a production/vanish/coins across sequence.
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mfeld
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On 2007-12-06 18:03, Mb217 wrote:
And finally, this quote "Confusion is not magic," I've heard before strangely in reference to Sylvester and even Mickey Silver...So my friend Mano is in great company I'd say and definitely on some ultra-creative right tracks...Smile -Mb


Well so far I've never seen Mano or Mickey Silver perform in front of an audience, not even ever on video in front of an audience, but I've seen Sylvester perform at the Castle with a group of my laymen friends and their reaction was.... well.... let's say less than enthusiastic.

Afterall, Dai Vernon said "Confusion is not Magic."

And Darwin Ortiz says "At the end of an effect, your audience must not be in the least bit confused as to what just happened. They must be absolutely clear on what just happened. Only then can they really appreciate that what just happened is totally impossible."

and as much as Sylvester is creative, and Mickey does one move really well, Dai and Darwin are giants. They are the ones who can really provide the actual practical advice built off their own experience performing time and time again for audiences who were absolutely blown away.
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vinsmagic
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You never seen Mickey perform live yet you state he does one thing well.. you are very wrong.......M<ckey IMO is the best coin worker of this century..bar none.

Darwin Ortiz is a teriffic magician but is one of the most boring....watching him on video or in person one falls asleep.....
Mano will some day be a house hold name because his moves are done by him alone.Tell me why Roth has asked mano to session with him??//this alone speaks highly of mano's work..Just because Veron or Ortiz said somethng that does not make it gospil.......that is only their opinion. just as you and I have our own opinions...
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ASW
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Quote:
On 2007-12-07 02:33, vinsmagic wrote:

Darwin Ortiz is a teriffic magician but is one of the most boring....watching him on video or in person one falls asleep.....


Make up your mind. What you wrote is oxymoronic. Either he's boring or a terrific magician, but he can't be both.

By the way, Ortiz isn't commenting on your little buddy's magic trick in the quotes above. I'm certain that Darwin wouldn't even know of the existence of this guy. Those quotes are from a book, so don't take it as a personal assault on your pal.
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Pete McEwen
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Vinnie,
I don't mean to attack you, yet you claim that anyone that's close to you is the best. I've heard you claim Rannie is the best, Mano is the best, Mickeky Silver is the best. I just think you should pick one, it'll make the pick that much more professional.

On the other hand, I don't see what we're arguing about. A couple of us have stated that we feel the routine is confusing. Then WU says that Mano himself said it was confusing and took down that video. Why is there still an argument? I've had ideas that I thought were great and then I watched them and said, whoops. This is an idea that could work, but for this draft it needed improvement. It's hard not to see that. I plan on writing Mano personally to talk to him more about it because it does have potential. I think Mano is a great coin worker, the routine just needs work. I feel that if you're arguing that the routine is perfect, then you don't have a leg to stand on because the creator himself has said otherwise.

Pete
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Mb217
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Quote:
On 2007-12-07 00:35, mfeld wrote:
and as much as Sylvester is creative, and Mickey does one move really well, Dai and Darwin are giants. They are the ones who can really provide the actual practical advice built off their own experience performing time and time again for audiences who were absolutely blown away.


Well, to each his own I guess. Smile I've seen Darwin Ortiz work and he is brilliant at what he does. Never saw Dai Vernon in person do his thing but have seen him on vids, etc. I'm sure Mickey Silver and Sylvester really missed out on conferencing with them about their work...Smile But I tellya what, I think if Dai Vernon saw Mickey Silver (with that supposed "one move" you mention) and Sylvester with what he does with that Pitch I think he would find them both amazing as most people do. I already know that Darwin Ortiz finds Mickey Silver amazing as I saw Mickey "amaze" him to no end once, and David Roth was there too (he loves card tricks). Smile Anyway I certainly respect these guy's perspectives on what's what but I am wary of folks that like to make "giants" of mere mortals, of which we humanly all are. I would think the whole issue of "confusion" would depend most deeply upon just who is being confused. I mean just suppose Vernon was confused by something but you weren't... Would you then think because Dai is perplexed that you should be also...I mean what else could you do under such circumstances put forth by a giant?

Seriously, not a big deal. You like what you like for the reasons you care to entertain and I respect that. Smile I quite possibly could watch Mickey Silver and watch Darwin Ortiz and be more amazed by Mickey, and I was as a lot of people were telling by reactions. Smile Go figure! Smile And I didn't miss any brilliance shown by either and they both were in their own ways. I guess one might've been a giant and the other a dwarf, but in front of a real audience I honestly could not tell. The only thing I could see and feel from the audience that clearly both were not dwarves of any kind. Smile
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


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maxmaximus
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Hi,

I think the combination of sleight of hand (technique,skill), natural moves and pefect timing is the key to good coin magic...all of the above mentioned persons are great coin workers but for me the only person who fooled and impressed me with his work is GIACOMO BERTINI .... but that's only my opinion .... oh and mickey silvers human slot machine is a thing of beauty ....

btw I am a member of the ibm ring vienna (austria) and we are thinking of an invitation of mr bertini for some lecture notes here in vienna, so giacomo when you read this pls pm me...thanks

greetz from austria
max
vinsmagic
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Pete I never said rannie was the best I have stated in the PAST HE IS ONE OF THE BEST CREATIVE GUYS IN MAGIC.
In my life time I have seen many many magicians good and bad.. Mickey silver imo is a good as Slydini and goshman and mickey dosen't need a table when performing magic...Martin Nash has also stated this claim...when he seen mickey perform at the castle...
Mano is a unknown magician his skills with coins will some day be in be in the serious coin workers arsenal. he is that good...and his controls are origional with him..

Asw Ortiz is boring,,, ever wonder why his videos are not the best sellers list..because he is dull that's just my observation
Now for his skills and magical thinking he is second to none....\
so in this sense he can be both boring a teriffic...
and by the way I am a great fan of Ortiz .....as a person and teacher
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Pete McEwen
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Vinnie, I don't have the time to go look back at all the previous threads. I just recall you've given out a lot of high praises to those loyal to you whenever you can. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just harder to take when you say it about everyone. Please don't take it as being an insult to those you've praised. I've never seen Mickey Silver work, but I've heard amazing things. I've seen a lot of Rannie's work and he's very creative and very skillful. Mano is very good at what he does as well. I do not wish to insult anyone with these comments. If I was going to insult someone I would attack your lack of punctuation and grammar (not attacking you personally, it's a very large pet peeve of mine.) I just figure that everyone only says good things about a lot of videos put up. I don't know if it's because they want to be liked or to fit in. But I would rather mention the weakpoints I find and try and make the routine better. If anyone disagrees, then please don't post a video and ask for suggestions or feedback.

Pete
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rutabaga
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As far as "magicians helping magicians" goes, I think Pete is on the ball here.
Zhang
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I too agree with Pete.

Wu.
travisb
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Quote:
On 2007-12-06 17:23, Dan Watkins wrote:
When I saw the video, it wasn't really so much bothered by the structure (though I did feel the pacing did languish on a bit), but the fact that both hands start out in front and to me look like he is holding something inside. So when the coins start appearing, to me it just looked like revealing coins that were held inside the hand.


Same here. My general feeling is that a routine that's not structured for maximum deceptiveness probably ought not to be done at a pace that invites contemplation. I can see the routine working better (for me) if it was played a bit more like a coin flurry--more of a sense of chaos, not less.

-Travis
magicalaurie
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On 2007-12-07 11:49, maxmaximus wrote:
the only person who fooled and impressed me with his work is GIACOMO BERTINI ....


Giacomo is doing fascinating work, indeed. Very, very talented man.
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