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jlevey
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Yes, Bill, understood.... Monkey see is not simply monkey do in trhis case --

..but will you still try and throw a monkey up in the air in an effort to change it into a coconut?!!

Jonathan
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C.W.G.
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Thanks guys, some really brilliant posts there especially from eric who really got the spirit of the question. This post should help a lot of people in my position to make the right decision of looking back to look forward.

I guess thinking about it now... Bobo was one of the first places I started and in fairness a lot of the stuff in that book is some of the stuff I use to this day as opposed to the dozens of DVDs I have.
Bill Palmer
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You should also study John Ramsay. And if you have a chance to cross over to England, take a couple of lessons from Bobby Bernard. He is a walking encyclopedia of magic. He's been in the business for ages, and when he sees you perform, he will tell you what's good and what isn't. He won't be gentle, but you will be a better performer for it.

I speak from experience.
"The Swatter"

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gadfly3d
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I have never seen or read any of his work (which is why I'm asking this) because since I became a magician, I've always looked to modern day magicians to see the latest techniques and ideas are. I always presumed that anything Vernon (or Marlo or Jennings) had to say, would be passed on by now and that all the useful stuff would be fairly common knowledge at this stage.


[/quote]

This sort of presentism, the idea that knowledge is cumulative, results in us thinking that we are superior to the past. This is not the case for everything that is passed on something is lost.

Gil Scott
Mik
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I love to watch Vernon do his cup and balls routine, I think the clip is available on You Tube.
From the mind of Mik
irossall
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Quote:
On 2007-12-04 13:12, mtpascoe wrote:
It’s not good on the ego to practice a sleight that no one will see, but it’s better in the long run.


Not good for the Ego? It would be GREAT for mine. I guess I don't understand your statement.

Doug Henning was also a student of Vernon's.
Vernon wrote "Symphony Of The Rings" for Linking Ring routine.
I was very much blessed to have the chance to not only watch (very close up) Dai Vernon perform a multitude of effects but also got to talk to him after his performance and believe it or not I was the only person to meet him afterwards, go figure.
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mtpascoe
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[quote]On 2008-02-14 08:45, irossall wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-12-04 13:12, mtpascoe wrote:
It’s not good on the ego to practice a sleight that no one will see, but it’s better in the long run.


Quote:
Not good for the Ego? It would be GREAT for mine. I guess I don't understand your statement.



What I mean is that we practice sleights that the lay audience won’t even acknowledge because the difficult moves are invisible. There are some magicians that want acknowledgment for something that took years of practice. This is wrong thinking as Vernon has shown. If one just perfect the move that is necessary to pull of the mystery, that should be good enough.
Signor Blitz
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Dear FINNY,

I have experienced his work and I agree with you. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL! I have come to a conclusion that it is all about timing. He had seen many greats and was able to pass on many wonderful stories, facts and tips then he outlived anyone else who had wittnessed then - being a sole link to our past.

The area the has bugged me for decades and even Dia could not answer himself when ever I would brind this up - was it worth it? When it was all said and done - was it worth sacrificing your family for?

The Greatest lesson Dia could teach us IS NOT BEING NATURAL it is having B - A - L - A - N - C - E in everything you do! Learn from his mistakes so history does not repeat itself at the expence of our families.
Bill Palmer
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Who is Dia?
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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magicfish
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Let's try and get the Professor's name correct first before we start pretending to know anything about him.

Dai Vernon was a master card manipulator. If you are doing close-up card magic, then you owe much to Mr. Vernon. Study him as much as you can. Read about Michael Ammar, Larry Jennings, Charlie Miller, John Ramsay, Jay Ose, Ricky Jay, Persi Diaconis, Steve Freeman etc.

If you don't know what the "big deal" is about the Professor, you're not doing enough homework- becoming a magician requires much study.
Bill Palmer
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Precisely. If you can't spell Dai Vernon or Hofzinser, for Pete's sake, don't make any kind of asinine post about them.

Rant off.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Signor Blitz
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For those who enjoy finding carless keyboarding will have more than there fill of jollies with this post. (You know who you are - I am looking in your directoin - lol)

Magicfish - believe me - If I am going to pretend that I know someone, it would NOT be Dia (no disrespect just careless keyboarding) As I was said - it was about timing - Dai was there when there were some really great "workers" out there. At the expence of his family he gathered information that was scatter across the country - and brought it all together for the first time. A living library.

In professional baseball, players like Billy Martin - Joe Torre - Tony LaRousa - Sparky Anderson - Cassy Stengle (who never even played baseball) were average players at best but were great managers. They did what Dai did and that was to soak up as much information as possible and recognize it. He could go through the catalog of knowledge in his mind and see what is really happening with an effect and performer. As a full time professional entertainer for non-magic groups he was average at best - but he was a great teacher/manager for others.

I do not see what the "big deal" is when it is comes to his actual/real time performing to earn money to take care of himself and his family. If you look beyond the manipulations and want a career performing for a buck then study workers - Nate Lipzig - Billy Bishop - Don Alan - Joel Bauer - Bill Goldman. Now we are taling about the real deal a big deal. It goes way beyond finger flicking to be a real entertainer. Dai is great for the sleights and magic club groopies but not a great example for a career. B - A - L - A - N - C - E! Speaking of which time to log out of this rabbit hole and get involved with the real world and what is important. In the words of Randy Jackson - I'm just keeping it real.
magicfish
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You couldn't be more wrong. Vernon was far from average. He was expert. Vernon was not interested in making money. Performing the same things over and over again bored him.
AS far as just being a sponge, you are wrong again; Itwas those around him that travelled for miles and put everything on hold just to soak up what Vernon had come up with.
He was absolutely without equal with a pack of cards for decades.

As far as being a worker, He worked for the rich and famous in intimate settings in the finest venues in America. Vernon was at the absolute pinnacle of the cocktail party corporate scene. Rubbing shoulders with the super rich and movie stars while delighting them with fresh, original, innovative, flawlessly executed routines.

In short, he was the "biggest deal". No offense, but perhaps you should do a tad more reading.

Sincerely, Magicfish.
Signor Blitz
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Magicfish,

We live in a wonderful country - we can look at the same thing and see different things and be free to express it without fear. We will have to agree to disagree. My parameters for a bid deal is indeed different than yours. Kinda like American history - for us we were the good guys and England was the bad guys but from a different look at the same thing we were the bad guys and they were the good guys.

Sure he had a career performing and double lifting for the rich and famous - but like sooo verrry mannny he had his brief time in the spotlight and then he was done.

The artistic "not interested in making money" is a wonderful card that many people had and will continue to play. Acting disinterested in earning a income to take of the family in the name of the art of magic - Hey wait - you are right that is a big deal!

Being a songe is a GOOD THING! A sponge has the ability to soak up a lot and most importantly hold on to it. He was indeed a sponge - he did indeed soaked up a lot of information of others and he did retain the information and then as the tools as they are (the moves, therory etc.) Brought them together. People did flock to his feet - yours included - to learn what you can but it was not until HE had done a lot of chasing people down long before we were born.

Ad I could not say it better than your last post - I quote "He was the biggest deal" Well, I could not agree more - he was. The key word is was.

But to learn anything from him about actually performing for a living - not going to happen. Learning about becoming obsessed with something to the point where you push those that really matter away - he is indeed THE PROFESSOR.

Like Dai - I am bored with the same thing - I am done with this topic Ifyou want to slame me go ahead for me I agree to disagree.
magicfish
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I guess guys like John Carney and Michael Ammar and Bruce Cervon, aren't making a very good living.

You're right this conversation is over as you are 100 percent clueless about the influence that Dai's work had on many of the top "money- making" full time pros.

I am ashamed that you are a member of a magic community.

p.s. put down the dvd's and go read a magic book.
Signor Blitz
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You pulled me back in - your tricky devil you!

Dai provided the tools for Carney, Ammar and the Late Bruce Cervon (what a loss) but it was there hard work and hunger that built there careers not just the tricks and theory Dai shared with them. If Dai was not in their lives I am sure that there own personal drive for a career would build there sucess. Like countless other professionals without the aid of Dai (not everyone is a close-up kinda guy)

I find peace with that I make you ashamed that I am a member of the magic community. It reaffirms many things that I have learned about the magic community of the decades - petyness, smallness and the inability to agree to disagree. Espically when some has a different opinion or view point. So, I must be doing something right. (Its kinda like being damed by the devil - if you read more than magic then you know what I am talking about.) Before you get PO I am not calling you the devil my any stretch of the imagination - gotta cover the bases in this PC world.

By the way - I never got into dvd's - my vcr still is blinking 12:00. Typically I only like the historical videos the magic world is filled with too many varation of routine type of videos. As for books - books have been read - the great ones are revisited many times while on the road - the garbage is collecting dust - I can make you a sweet deal if you like to read! Unfortunitly it seens that there is way more garbage comming out than good stuff. Don't take it personal but It sounds to me that you might want to get yourself out of the books and get more into life. Just a blind observation about someone I don't even know that is unfounded - kinda like your opinion for me.

Take care and enjoy your discuss for me!
magicfish
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You don't know why Vernon was a "big deal" because he made ends meat cutting silhouettes. You don't get it... that's fine.
Signor Blitz
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Thank youfor seeing how I am looking at this. Magic was not his means to an end. Which there is nothing wrong with that - I do get it. He was not cut out (pun intended) for the daily grind of performing for a check - which is very different than performing for the love of it - the later is Dai - it was a passion-not an occupation (not much of a big deal in that way - sounds pretty typical of the overwhelming majority in the world of magic - magic is performed as an extra or side income and not persued as an actual occupation)- From his angle it is hard to learn what it is really like to perform for a living. Lesser "skilled" magicians who "did make it work over a lifetime" are better teachers in that area.

From reading in the books and watching the interviews - did cutting silhouettes on the boardwalk really make the ends meet. From the accounts that I remember there usually was more of the month left after the money was gone. From what his children can recall - things were kinda tough. I remember feeling a sence of saddness when I learned that. I wish I knew to ask about that era of his life more when he was alive and not so stuck on being natural.

This is been fun Magicfish - It has broken up a goofy day that has been a total kick in the head.
magicfish
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Vernon's passion for magic was anything but typical.
Signor Blitz
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Would venture to say it was a passion that was boarderline obsession? (it sounds negative but not all obsessons are bad)
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