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doug brewer V.I.P. 1142 Posts |
I find it hilarious that magician's who do 6-way, flying trapeze cuts with cards would complain about how "natural" the pop-up move is to spectators.
ENK is the perfect impromptu trick, when someone hands you 3 coins to "see some magic". This has come up for me, and I immediately launch into this trick. It's perfect. The Pop-up move is a useful sleight. The one thing I like about it is how slow it can be done, and, it's practically invisible from all angles. I realize it's a little "old school", but I still like it. A HPC moves a little fast at this point in the routine and, for me anyway, could be a little out of context (or naturalness?) to the rest of the routine. I think the heelclip steal fits better here (after the first coin, to steal the second coin, and the third is already on your neck) as a substitute and is something I've done also. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-08-26 21:05, Bradley Morgan wrote: I wouldn’t. Having it change will suggest to the spectators that you have extra coins, which is the last thought that you want them to have for this routine. Its beauty and its strength lie in the fact that the spectators are convinced that you have only three coins; if you allow them to consider that you have more, the beauty and strength are lost. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
I agree with Bill. A Chinese coin just seems like an extra coin, not a change.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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mystre71 Inner circle martinsburg west virginia 1693 Posts |
I agree with Mr. Brewer's statement
"I find it hilarious that magician's who do 6-way, flying trapeze cuts with cards would complain about how 'natural" the pop-up move is to spectators." Just because something isn't natural for a layman why does it have to be UN-natural to magicians? We are supposed to do things differently and it's expected of us. Coin roll, coin star, springing the cards all very unnatural things to do, but when someone hears your a magician then they ask us to do things such as “Can you spring (Shoot to them) the cards from hand to hand?” Some things are just going to be unnatural in routines but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be used. I think if a routine flows well any unnatural moves will be unnoticed. Some statements above say to use the HPC instead of the pop up move. But the HPC move is very unnatural in itself how many people you know slap their coin down on the table like that? Were magicians unnatural things are happening when we are performing. While doing these unnatural move alone might stand out but in the context of a routine they go unnoticed. If a painter was to hold his brush in a closed fist and in a stabbing motion paints a beautiful picture with dots. No one says he's holding that brush very unnatural, They just look at the big picture. Now with that said I want to make it clear (or I'll never hear the end of it. …lol) That I’m in no way saying we shouldn't try and make things look natural as we can. But, these are just some things to think about. Best Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
Alas, we ARE more interested in moves and technique.
And it seems we are also more creative in defending unnaturalness than finding better alternatives. I'll move on...
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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mystre71 Inner circle martinsburg west virginia 1693 Posts |
I'm not defending unnaturalness I was making a statement. Perhaps you should read the last part of my post again.
Best Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
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doug brewer V.I.P. 1142 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-08-27 13:32, Dan LeFay wrote: I see a tear edging it's way down Dan's cheek . . . Relax, dude. The devil is in the details. Since technique is critical to perception, perhaps you can give us some slack? Wrapping a 15 minute "presentation" around a 30 second coin trick would not necessarily improve it. |
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Doug Conn Loyal user 212 Posts |
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… my original question was, “How we could improve the ‘Elbow, Knee and Neck’ plot?”, not if the pop-up move is a valid technique or not. Here's a couple thoughts: I use Daryl's E, K, N production (sans pop-out move) after vanishing the coins one at a time. I also have a routine where the effect is repeated (the coins travel twice.) The two routines ("Joints" and "Coin Spectacle") can be found in my 'CONNjuring' notes (available at http://www.dougconn.com.) Regards, Doug Conn |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2003-08-27 13:09, mystre71 wrote: I recently saw a magician who has performed at the Magic Castle for 25 years (at least, that's how he was introduced) slap a handful of coins on the table. That was without question the WORST Han Ping Chien I have ever seen: if he had been a split-second late in moving his left hand out of the way I fear that he would have broken several fingers. If you believe that the HPC involves slapping the coins on the table, you need to retreat into the past and learn to do the move properly. The coins should be tossed gently onto the table; first from one hand, then from the other. Done properly it is an elegant, natural, extremely deceptive sleight. |
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Musashi Regular user Oregon 132 Posts |
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On 2003-08-27 13:32, Dan LeFay wrote: Have you seen Reed's E,N & K. on “The Coin Ovations DVD.” It seems very natural to me, and leads right into his Scream Fly (3 Fly) routine. It is inspirational! Josh
"Care for a Jelly Baby?"
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mystre71 Inner circle martinsburg west virginia 1693 Posts |
2000magician wrote:
Quote:
"If you believe that the HPC involves slapping the coins on the table, you need to retreat into the past and learn to do the move properly. The coins should be tossed gently onto the table; first from one hand, then from the other. Done properly it is an elegant, natural, extremely deceptive sleight. I never said I believed that HPC involves slapping I was just using it as an example but slapping or tossing coins gently or not it's still NOT a natural thing to do. NO laymen would ever toss or slap coin onto the table to show how many they have. If they were looking for change and had coins in both hand they would dump the coins from one hand to the other but wouldn't toss them to the table. I was referring to the statement made by others that the pop up move was unnatural and the HPC should be used in it's place but In my opinion the HPC is more unnatural then the pop up move. I'm not saying HPC is a bad move, just if your going to replace a move because it's unnatural then why replace it with another unnatural move? That’s all I’m trying to say. Best Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
A layman is rarely put in the position of having to prove unquestionably how many coins he has in each hand; therefore, a layman never needs to toss coins onto a table. In the context of having to provide such proof, I maintain that tossing coins onto a table is perfectly natural: it allows you to show the number of coins, it allows you to show that your hand is otherwise empty, and the uncontrolled nature of tossing the coins precludes any orchestrated concealment.
If you threatened a layman with bodily harm if he didn't prove that he held exactly two coins in his left hand, a natural reaction would be to toss those two coins out into the open for all to see and show that he had no others in his left hand. That's the natural motivation for the HPC, and laymen understand it. |
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martysh Special user Greenville,SC 522 Posts |
Hey guys... I agree about the delicate performance of HPC (as you so abbreviate it) but I need to tell you that more than 25 years ago I had the privilege to see Don Alan perform on a number of occasions. In fact I remember a long lecture at the one of the Southeastern conventions, and boy did he slap that sucker on the table. I think it was a coins thru table trick... but he slammed that coin down as he was a strong demonstrative performer doing close up magic before it was ever fashionable. I remember this so well and on a few of my endeavors emulate such a vibrant, showy, loud motion to maybe scare away the burning eyes. Maybe that was where this guy you mentioned in the thread learned it or saw it first. In short such a bold move would fit certain personalities.
Marty Shapiro Greenville, SC |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Did he slam the coins down as part of a HPC to show that he had all the coins with which he started, or as the means by which to cause one to penetrate the table? I've seen another performer do the latter, and I suspect that is what Don Alan did. I would agree that the latter application is a matter of style, although I personally prefer, say, Slydini's elegance. (In the case of the other performer I mentioned, it isn't a matter of style simply because he lacks any style whatsoever.)
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martysh Special user Greenville,SC 522 Posts |
Thanks for your question. Now I remember something significant I forgot to describe. Instead of doing the move 1/4 inch off the table, he was catching the extra coin in mid air, maybe 6 to 9 inches above the table. Basically, he was doing the move in mid air catching the coin high (almost in suspended animation) and certainly making a slam as the hand "innocently" hit the table showing the correct number of coins. That's what made the move so impressive and so undetectable.
Marty S |
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mystre71 Inner circle martinsburg west virginia 1693 Posts |
The only time/s I can even think a layman would ever slam coins to the table would be if he or she was mad, and they would slam some change on the table.
If a layman was asked to prove how many coin he had in both hands, He would open both outright. Not toss one or two from the left then pick them back up then toss the ones in the right. It's just not a natural move. I'm not saying it's a bad move it's just not a natural move. Best Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
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martysh Special user Greenville,SC 522 Posts |
Maybe slam is an unfortunate word here.
But maybe there is a masculine way to show the coins as opposed to an effeminate way. I think the move is most natural in context; deliberate, bold, and easily understood by the spectator. Marty Greenville, SC |
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Jason Wethington Special user Orlando, Fl 615 Posts |
Perhaps the problem isn't the technique but a presentational one. Where have I heard this before?
I use the move, and in one routine, I slam the coins down because I'm getting frustrated that they are moving around (seemingly of their own accord and will.) It is presented as I am nearing the end of my rope, I close my eyes (as I am dropping the coins on the table.) I pleadingly have the spectator count the coins on the table before I pick them up. It alleviates some of the stress of slamming the coins down and gets a laugh. This is a good technique worth exploring various applications. Jason |
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mystre71 Inner circle martinsburg west virginia 1693 Posts |
Jason, in that context (frustrated) is the only reason I could think of that would make HPC seem natural. I say this because no where in the world would someone slam, toss, drop, etc., coins to a table in that manner unless they were frustrated.
Now that you got me thinking about one other reason; COULD be if you were showing how to play a game of chance, perhaps where you were placing a bet and you slam your coins (the bet) on the table and then another guy to the right slams his coins to the table; or something like that. Best Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
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Jason Wethington Special user Orlando, Fl 615 Posts |
Sounds like a good reason Joe. Another alternative of course is the Gallo Pitch, It is much more nonchalant and very, very deceptive.
Jason |
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