They were also published in MAGIC, and in several other volumes that Stanyon published that contained extracts from MAGIC.

I think they were also published in Hugard's.

Yes, Stanyon's Lessons on Cups and Balls were originally serialized in MAGIC from February to July, 1912. Very much later, the same series was reproduced in Jinx. Not sure about Hugard's Magic Monthly but would not be surprised if the same series appeared in that periodical as well.

Actually, Stanyon's Lessons are disappointly unoriginal - essentially a re-hash (in places, word-for-word) of the Cups & Balls section in the 1797 British Encyclopedia, Guyot's treatment of the same subject, and Hoffman's treatment of C&B in Modern Magic.

Fortasse

Amazing how that Guyot fellow stole all of those routines, isn't it!

Sure is!

Fortasse

Just watched the DVD featuring Vernon's discussion of his cups and balls routine with Mike Ammar (Dai Vernon Revelations, vol.5). He says nothing about the origins of his routine except that when he moved to NY (in the 20's I think it would have been), the "only" magician who was performing cups and balls at the time was Pop Krieger, and that having seen Malini perform the trick, he was inspired to follow his example by loading from the pockets rather than from a servante. That's it........so the mystery remains.

Fortasse

Actually Mr Diaconis works near Nice, France, Côte d'Azur...
I live there, maybe I could contact him and ask directly.
I would then copy here his answer...
Also I will ask to JP Vallarino if he's got a direct contact to join Mr Diaconis.

Greetings !

I belive his year in Nice is over and he's back at Stanford, in California. Nice, where our car was broken into and all my camera equipment was stolen on our last trip there.

Just checking to see if anyone has come across anything else of relevance to this question. I've been researching it pretty throroughly (by reference to old magic periodicals and other published literature) but to no avail. Strange, isn't it, that it should be proving so difficult to discover the basis of the single most influential cups and balls routine in all of modern magic.

Fortasse

I would believe that Vernon was influenced by those he was exposed to such as Pop Krieger, Malini and others.
On the Interview tapes recorded on his 80th B-day) he mentions that nobody was doing the cups and balls except for Krieger. He then describes why he came up with his routine and shows it. He does not mention at any time any specific book where he "got" pieces of his routine from. Him and Charlie Miller had a creative way of thinking and he probably had a plethora of slieghts to choose from. As a result he put together his routine from trial and error as he did many of his routines.
Krieger used a Gibiciere and Dai wanted to get away from that because he didn't like the look for where he was working at the time. He decided to use his pockets instead and he talks at length on Revelations #5 and on the second tape of the interview.
I highly recommend this set of videos.
I heard an old timer say that the vernon routine was set of standard moves from the early part of the 20th century and reseach so far has pretty much confirmed that statement. the exceptional contribution was the loading sequence and how he set each progressive phase but the moves themselves were standards.
Enhoy,
Mobius

The Vernon routine is a perfect example of knowing what to include and what to leave out.

What would you say is the weakest part of the Vernon routine? Personally, I've never much cared for the "Two-None-Two" sequence in the routine.

Fortasse

I think there is a better way to handle that. Live, in Vernon's hands, it looked good, but I can't make it fit my way of moving.

I don't really like the loading sequence.

I like the Two None Two sequence.....it is the putting the hand in front of the cup that I do not like. This is due to my teachers back when I started. Johnny "Ace" Palmer was my teacher for the cups and Balls back in 1975.

I really like the way that Rannie has gone about thinking that sequence. I have seen it done without the hand in front of the cup and that looked better to me.

On Revelations 5 Vernon and Gary Oulet talk about it and the thinking is clear there. There is a way Vernon did it where it didn't look like he was hiding something.
Adaption to your own movements is key to getting it to work and that also is discussed by Michael Ammar on Revelations 5 and on his own videos on the cups. Vernon even remarks how good it is that Michael is thinking on his own about his magic.
Loading sequences are based on rythem, timing and structure and if any one of them fails then it will not work properly. I do not like the sequence where the balls keep coming back over and over...to reptitive for me so I use something different at the loading part.
Very good lessons on that tape.
Regards,
Mobius

On Revelations 5 DAI VERNON gives credit to POP KRIEGER on the tip over move which IMHO is one of the most deceptive moves in C&B

Personally, I much prefer Ammar's final loading sequence to Vernon's. What I especially like is how the the phased elimination of the cups is used as the cover for the loading. The misdirection here is much more powerful than Vernon's IMHO. Besides, it avoids the "false explanation"/French drop move that so many magicians find so distasteful about the Vernon loading sequence.

Then again, it all comes down to presentation and showmanship, no matter which routine is used. In the hands of a master, either the Vernon routine or Ammar's can be made as convincing and entertaining as the other....or any other routine, for that matter.

Fortasse

Just off the phone with Johnny Thompson about the roots of Vernon's routine. It was all credited, phase by phase in the SPHINX.

What John recalls is the opening phase was from BOSCO. Other phases were credited to S. Leo Horowitz, and Francis Carlysle. There was one other name but John couldn't recall it. There was one sequence he added on certain occasions from Pop Krieger.

Great information Pete. Thanks for making the call.
Mobius

IMHO the tip over move can be a dead giveaway for loading a cup. My friends/family who have watched a few cups and balls routines on Youtube (I have shown them the good performers like Vernon, Schneider, etc.) and several people have told me that they saw the magician load the cup during the tip over move.

I think the tip over move works best when it is used at the start of a routine. People aren't looking for the loading of cups at that point.

If you keep your fingers together and you ALWAYS use the same motion when handling a cup, you will fool them.

I agree it is a usable sleight, I just don't think it is the best thing ever. Also Bob White's DVD made my tip over load a LOT better.