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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
That's why the Professor used it to begin. It is hard to beat and sets the tone, three vanishes and reproductions. Bing bing bing... and into more complex things.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
Pete :
Thanks for the info. from Johnny Thompson. I'll try to track it down in the Sphinx. Fortasse |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-14 16:03, matt kemp wrote: would you agree though that part of that may be the lack of misdirection and such when you put cups and balls on video with poor camera work |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
If the tip over move is done by someone who doesn't do it correctly, it is about as effective as a bad French drop. Is this the fault of the tip over move? I really don't think so.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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matt kemp Veteran user 312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-15 18:52, Bill Palmer wrote: I didn't show my laymen friends videos of amateurs, I showed them performers that I consider good, such as John Mendoza and Al Schneider. My friends could still see the secret behind the move. I don't use the tip over move so I know they didn't see me expose it and then see someone else do the same motion. I think the problem is that many people (especially those who hate magic) use the logic that "if the ball isn't in one hand, then it's in the other." Therefore, people watching the "dead" hand (the one retaining the ball) then they can see a loading action. I do NOT think the tip over move is a horrible move. I think it can be used and I'm sure that many people have been successful in using it. I just wanted to share my personal experience with the move. Also, my friends were watching videos and I think magic looks different on video than it does in real life. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Why are you showing your layman friends videos that allow them to figure out the moves?
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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matt kemp Veteran user 312 Posts |
I didn't show my friends videos with the intention of exposure. As I said before, I showed them (people who I consider) good magicians, such as John Mendoza, Al Schneider, and other professionals with DVDs featuring the cups and balls. I showed them the videos because I really like cups and balls and I wanted to share my passion with them.
My friends didn't watch the videos over and over trying to discover the secret behind the trick. However, some moves such as the tip over move reappear in several videos and so a few of my friends discovered the secret of the tip over move. This happened on two separate occassions with a separate friend. I think if either friend sees another cups and balls routine, they probably won't recognize the tip over load. I think they might have had a lucky guess, because most moves are busted by a lucky guess from time to time. I didn't confirm their suspicion that the cup was loaded during the tip over load. My friends also had many more incorrect guesses and assumptions while watching the videos, such as saying "I saw a ball go under that cup!" when no ball went under the cup, etc. |
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Jason Fleming Veteran user Marooned, Hawaii 374 Posts |
Matt, you clearly need to find some less smart friends.
Quote:
On 2008-01-15 23:33, matt kemp wrote: This is one of the key points I think. Magic that is produced specifically for TV broadcast often doesn't look as convincing if you watched the taping live. Similarly, magic that is designed to be performed live and up close often will not translate misdirection and energy as strongly when viewed on a screen. Analytical types often watch magic while simultaneously trying to detect the secrets. For some reason they aren't as willing to enter into the agreement of magic. When performing for them, engaging them with misdirection and weaving your delicate web of alternating interest-dispersion becomes even more crucial to success. The performer can read them and engage them directly to manage their focus. This is the piece that is often missing when they are allowed to watch videos of live performances that depend on sleight of hand. |
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walid ahumada Special user sinaloa, mexico 892 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-14 16:03, matt kemp wrote: I wonder if they (your friends) watch the videos only one time??, do they had a chance to rewind it to see what the other hand was doing?
“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Spsectators aren't all clueless and can see through lots of what we do, technique-wise.
The key is to make it fun and get them into a mindset that they won't even care to know how it is done.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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scottjenkins Loyal user 218 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-16 05:56, Jason Fleming wrote: I've got a few "less smart friends" that I would be happy to donate...
Scott Jenkins
Magician Member of the AMA Joe Porper's partner! |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Remember that the television camera is not as easily misdirected as human attention is.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
I think that the Tip Over Move was put in print first with Jean Caroly "Le Prestidigitateur: Tours faciles d’escamotage." Paris A. L. Guyot 1902 "Le tour des gobelets" p. 11-29. The Tip Over Move described p 22 is generally attributed to Dai Vernon and can be faithfully translated as follows “Everyone did see well that there was nothing under these cups. They are lifted up again and one of the three nutmegs is placed on the bottom of each of them. The open left hand is placed in front of the first cup and it is tipped over to let the nutmeg which was on it fall into the left hand, in the same time the nutmeg concealed in the right hand is left under the cup. I take this nutmeg in the left hand (keep it in the right) and I let it pass under this first cup. I take the one on the second cup (it is taken the same way leaving under the cup the nutmeg concealed in the right hand) and I toss it into this second cup (same false transfer). I take the third one and I let it pass as well under the third cup”.
For the ones who would not know "muscade" means nutmeg in French. Hence the debate on the size of the balls is interesting as well since there is no way to do the type of palming described in older Europen books with a nutmeg: it's too big (just about the size of the balls we use now)
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
HUH? If a nutmeg is the size of the balls we use now then how is it hard to palm??
What size? I use 1 1/8th inch balls and have no problem palming two at a time in finger palm. I was always taught not to cover the front of the cup ....it screams move going on to every audience it is performed for. Mobius |
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kentfgunn Inner circle Merritt Island FL 1639 Posts |
Mobius/Mike,
How does covering the front of the cup scream "MOVE" to the audience. Are you only talking, in the context of the Two-None-Two serious of scooping moves? I do cover the entire mouth of the cup, in my routine, on several instances. If it is screaming move. Somebody needs to tell me. I am showing one ball only before the cover and my hand empty as it leaves. I have zero "classical" training from anyone on the cups and balls. I only had the Vernon text, when I learned the routine. Your assistance will be appreciated in this matter. Kent |
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Levity Elite user 447 Posts |
This is a great thread!
G
"I suggest you watch very carefully..."
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JordanB Special user dallas, tx 626 Posts |
Several years ago, Bob White did some research to see if he could piece together where all the parts of the Vernon routine came from. He could find most every move or sequence in print....except for one main part that Bob thinks is completely original with Vernon.
I helped Bob with some of the research and I remember him speculating that some of it may have been influenced by Pop Krieger. I looked and looked but couldn't find a complete description of Pop Krieger's routine, but then again I'm not much of a researcher. Do any of you know if Pop's routine was printed anywhere. I checked several old periodicals and some books from the time, but found nothing. Jordan |
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
Sending a PM Kent so as to not drail this thread.
About Pop Krieger....Ask Johnny Thompson he would know for sure. Mobius |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-25 16:35, Mobius303 wrote: Many years ago I did ask Johnny and we did some serious research through Pop Krieger's daughter, exchanged several faxes about it, but could not find the routine. We learned however that he was using a servante. It seems that Jean Hugard's routine was influenced by Pop Krieger's routine but is not it. Johnny gave me several very precious information about Max Malini's routine, who seems to have been one of the earliest performers having dropped the general use of servante initiated at the beginning of the 19th century to get away from gibecières. It may not be a question of performing impromptu since the first servantes where done by pinning up the table cloth on the performer's side.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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acephale New user 91 Posts |
Quote:
Spsectators aren't all clueless and can see through lots of what we do, technique-wise. In my admittedly limited experience, I have to say that Mr. Biro confirmed what I've seen over and over again. If you ever have a friend or two stand in the crowd and then after the performance honestly tell you what they heard couples saying to one another it will not only amaze you, but also make you a lot better performer in the process. People aren't stupid, but man oh man, they are starved for live, engaging entertainment nowadays. |
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