The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Coin sleights not worth practicing (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

iceblade
View Profile
Loyal user
254 Posts

Profile of iceblade
There isn't one coin sleight not worth practicing. I'm talking about coin sleights that are not worth because the time and the effort to master them is much less than the payoff.
For me it would be:
1) Back palm: because it's very limited to the size of the coin you can use. I use tenkai pinch and other back clips instead
2) Harada Hold
And now I'm getting prepared to being shot by everyone:
3) Many moves form T Nelson Downs Modern Coin Manipulation. If you have the book eg. look at figures 5-8. He says: "if the reader ever desires to become a strictly first-class Coin Manipulator he should practise, practise, and keep on practising until all the above sleights become second nature to him, and he can then defy even expert conjurers to tell where the coin is". Now let me be clear with this. I wouldn't devote 1 second of my time on these moves, plus I've never seen anyone using them. eg 2: The "domino" with the coins (fig. 30).
Now I'm not saying for a second that Downs was a bad magician. I really just don't like his teaching style and judging by the way the book was written I think he was a bit of a show off (he was jealous of Malini hehe).
I know I'm gonna get killed and flamed beyond belief for judging him, I just can't figure out why it bothers just me (maybe something's wrong with me Smile)
rutabaga
View Profile
Inner circle
Toronto, Canada
1277 Posts

Profile of rutabaga
Don't be too hard on yourself, iceblade. Challenge can be a good thing! Keep up the good work!
Wes65
View Profile
Inner circle
I've said very little in
1219 Posts

Profile of Wes65
I believe are in the golden age of coin magic....however, that is in a large part because of all the greats that have come before us.

I would be careful not to completely discount any sleight. However, I would focus on and practise primarily the ones I intend to use.
Wes
Fingers
View Profile
Inner circle
Pennsylvania, USA
1330 Posts

Profile of Fingers
I think what you found Iceblade is that not every sleight is for everyone. The ones you found may work great for some, but obviously not others, you being included in the "others" list. What you need to do is find the sleights that work for "you". What is nice is that there are a zillion sleights out there, so finding the ones that work for "you" shouldn't be impossible, but it will take some work. Once you find the sleights that work for you, is when the practice, practice, practice comes in play.....
Where I go, so do my coins.....
rikbrooks
View Profile
Inner circle
Olive Branch, Mississippi
1317 Posts

Profile of rikbrooks
Your opinion may change as your skill grows. Be careful to keep an open mind. What today seems difficult to learn may tomorrow appear to be a triviality
feher
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan
1421 Posts

Profile of feher
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 06:40, rikbrooks wrote:
Your opinion may change as your skill grows. Be careful to keep an open mind. What today seems difficult to learn may tomorrow appear to be a triviality

Could'nt say it better myself....lol so true so true.......
Remember Downs was a stage performer a lot of his sleights would be hard to do in a close up situation atleast the ones you mention.
Good luck do what works for you.
Tim
Mean people SUCK!!!!!!!
smithpaul60
View Profile
Veteran user
South Carolina
301 Posts

Profile of smithpaul60
Also according to my understanding, Downs put out MCM to sell him self not his magic. There are quite a few effect that are un-performable using just his descriotions. But there are also those worth looking at.
Genuis@work

We're trying to adopt. Visit us HERE
Chad Barnard
View Profile
Special user
Mt. Airy, NC
763 Posts

Profile of Chad Barnard
You guys are right about Downs' "Modern Coin Manipulation". It's heavy with back-patting and light on explanation. Even the Dover reprint states that if one wants to actually learn the sleights they should look at Bobo's descriptions in "Modern Coin Magic" and Henry Hay's descriptions "The Amateur Magicians Handbook".

Like Feher said, Downs was a stage performer and his "Continuous Front & Back Palm" cannot be performed close up. It's not happening.

Smithpaul is also correct in saying that there is value in it as well. Think about it. Now U C It, Now U Don't, Gone! and Melt are all reinventions of the same paragraph that was cryptically titled "No. 1".

I actually think that there are some sleights that have lost their value. One that always comes to mind is "The Illusive Coin Pass" from Art of Magic and Bobo's. With the modern application of the various retention vanishes this sleight, IMO, is worthless.

Supposedly, through various word-of-mouth stories, T.J. Crawford thought the same once he saw Vernon's "A Coin Vanish".
iceblade
View Profile
Loyal user
254 Posts

Profile of iceblade
Some nice opinions here. Just to clarify, I'm not referring to these "sleights" as useless, just that for me they are not worth practicing. Let me refere to an example. If I devote a loto of time for CP or Tenkai pinch the payoff is huge because I can use these sleights nearly many occasions. If I devote time to develop a good shuttle pass it's totally worth it. However for me eg I do mostly magic with euro coins so backpalm is useless (they are too small).
So I guess it comes down to what Fingers said, that every sleight is not for everyone. Of course I don't rule out any sleight. In the future I maybe using it.
However if I had to choose between one book Downs of Bobo it would be Bobo hands down. Don't get me me wrong there is some great stuff in Downs but for me most of it is pretty useless since I think it was really specific to the way Downs did magic and most of it could not be used in a more general fashion
obuch
View Profile
Regular user
197 Posts

Profile of obuch
I have downs book and I don't use any of sleights from there but I think others might find it usefull. but I want to ask you - why harada hold isn't worth practicing?? I don't practice it cuz I don't like this sleight I prefer jw grip to show empty hand but why do you think its not worth? for me it looks like one of best coin sleights.
joseph
View Profile
Eternal Order
Please ignore my
17163 Posts

Profile of joseph
It's called the Downs book, because when I practice the moves, the coin always falls Down under the couch where I can't reach it.... Smile ..
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Einstein)...
Curtis Kam
View Profile
V.I.P.
same as you, plus 3 and enough to make
3498 Posts

Profile of Curtis Kam
Ditto what Chad said about the Downs book. Even Henry Hay was apologetic about the "hide the coin" finger gymnastics ice mentioned. I don't know about the front and back palm being completely useless close up, however. Recall Bertram's telling of the encounter between Downs and Vernon and Downs' vanish of the six coins close up. Even when he didn't use the gaff, Vernon didn't say it was awful.

There are a lot of sleights that I consider useless, at least as written. The French drop as described in Bobo's, and "Over the Top" (again from Bobo) for starters. Even "Over the Top" has some use, Kainoa found a way to exploit the awkward appearance of the move.

I'm not at all happy with the "Reverse French Drop" either. And has anyone ever tried "The Thumb Pass" from Hugard's "Coin Magic"? WTF?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
iceblade
View Profile
Loyal user
254 Posts

Profile of iceblade
Quote:
On 2007-12-29 06:29, obuch wrote:
I have downs book and I don't use any of sleights from there but I think others might find it usefull. but I want to ask you - why harada hold isn't worth practicing?? I don't practice it cuz I don't like this sleight I prefer jw grip to show empty hand but why do you think its not worth? for me it looks like one of best coin sleights.

The idea of the Harada Hold is good, however its applications are very few and you may end up hurting your hand
Curtis I agree with you however regarding the reverse french drop if you modify it a little it can appear even more natural than the original one because you can hold the coin in a more natural way and it can be a pretty good take vanish (the way I do it I wouldn't ven call it a "drop")
However while the original french drop is considered an outdated sleight it's absolutely worth practicing for me because a) you can use it effectively in some situations (e.g if you have to hold the coin that way or to do Spellbound and b) you don't have to devote much of your time to learn it
Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
4155 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
Actually, there are a number of very effective ways of performing the French drop. Look at my method in the Encyclopedia of COin Sleights for one way. Somewhere in print you can find the ingenious way Gallo changed the stucture of the French frop, and it kills!
AT LAST - a NEW fun coins across!! MIGRATE is filled with laughs, magic, cool moves, lasts over 3 minutes, uses props, comes in a Poker Chip version or special Deluxe version with coins, and is about...BEARS! AT DEALERS EVERYWHERE!
https://youtu.be/hzf-Trbs4Ts

https://youtu.be/gGjMtW1DLjA

ALSO...available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com I also have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book, let me know if you want a pricelist.
Curtis Kam
View Profile
V.I.P.
same as you, plus 3 and enough to make
3498 Posts

Profile of Curtis Kam
Ice, we're saying the same thing, but in different ways. The french drop, As Described In Bobo's is not worth practicing, because even if it didn't take long, you'd be doing it wrong.

That said, there are certainly effective Variations on the french drop, Mikes Gallo and Rubinstein's being among them, as well as Derek Dingle's.

I like the sound of your take on the "Reverse French Drop". It is a poor simulation of a drop, so you're probably on the right track. Changing the timing and blocking completely, it's a decent "toss" I suppose.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
travisb
View Profile
Special user
Vancouver, BC
533 Posts

Profile of travisb
I think that most click passes I've seen aren't worth it, although some are better than others (and I've seen a couple that I like). Away from home and so can't provide citations, but anyways I actually mostly just wanted to put in a good word for the Downs book. There's some real gold in there, so long as you ignore some of the more ridiculous finger contortions and gimmicks. I find it to be a very inspiring book, and the more carefully I read it, the more interesting I find it. If you haven't read it I strongly suggest giving it a try. I know I was surprised by some of the ideas I found in it, but I'll say no more...

-Travis
David Neighbors
View Profile
V.I.P.
4857 Posts

Profile of David Neighbors
I use the reverse drop all the time! I did not lurn it from the book! I just saw someone do it and worked a handleing latter! And I use The backpalm all the time
too ! Smile! ( Agen not the handleng from Bobo's! ) I find the angles so much better than a clip!
David Neighbors



The Coinjurer

www.coinjurer.com
Wes65
View Profile
Inner circle
I've said very little in
1219 Posts

Profile of Wes65
Clint Eastwood (Harry Callahan, Magnum Force) said "a man's got to know his limitations"

A magician's got to his/her limitation too, and the limitations of the sleights he uses.
Wes
David Neighbors
View Profile
V.I.P.
4857 Posts

Profile of David Neighbors
Yea I know! I have seen people try to do sleights That thay have not mastered! Smile
I would rather seen And Easy routine done well! Then a hard routine done badly!
David Neighbors



The Coinjurer

www.coinjurer.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Coin sleights not worth practicing (0 Likes)
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.13 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL