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61magic
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I ran into Bill Smith at a magic convention in Las Vegas a few years back, he had several of his illusions on display.
It looks like one of them has been copied:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzY9Uz3Yuc&feature=related
http://dominikmagic.com/English/paypal/item048/item048.htm

On the surface this would seem like a clear rip off however when I examined the illusion and spoke to Bill I mentioned the fact it appeared to be a Lester Lake shredder working in a reverse direction.
He was quite firm this was not the same thing, stating the look, and method were different.
The only difference I found was a slight change to the method and the arm that moves the spikes.
Has Bill "reinvented" the shredder and claimed it as his own, or has a rip off been ripped off?
Professor J. P. Fawkes
Bill Nuvo
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Don't know, but looks horrible (I am not commenting on the lack of presentation either).
Stanyon
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I'm sorry but I can't watch those vids. Those two girls, and probably their father, have no clue as to what they are doing.

JMHO

Cheers! Smile
Stanyon

aka Steve Taylor

"Every move a move!"

"If you've enjoyed my performance half as much as I've enjoyed performing for you, then you've enjoyed it twice as much as me!"
Terry Holley
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Now I see why this trio had such a hard time perfroming a knock-off of "Audience Dis-member."

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5ynAbBOZQSI

They spent all their time perfecting the performance of this one Smile

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
darrylasher
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I dunno. Don't be too hard. The guy has some serious hand-gesturing skills. I mean, I didn't even notice how long it was taking, thanks to his mad hand-gesturing skillz!

-Darryl
Blair Marshall
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Does anyone on this thread seriously think that these were actual performances we were seeing????????????????????????????????????????????

Looks from the surface to be someone exhibiting the illusions at a trade event with non "assistant"s. Have you ever seen some of the dealers demonstrate their products?? Not a pretty site at times!!

And as a further comment, as the spiker is to be done with someone from the audience, I have actually seen worse "assistants" used with professional performers for this same effect.

Blair Marshall
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Wade Live
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I recently purchased an authentic audience acupuncture from Bill Smith. It’s a Jim Steinmeyer design and Bill Smith is the only authorized builder. The video above makes me wanna throw up because the illusion has great potential for routining and presentation. I’m presenting it as a paradie on the table of death. I'm turning it around by using a girl from the audience! LOL!

Any whooo Dominik magic is a defiantly a rip off artist at its best! Stay away from anything they sell! I talked to a guy who owns a ladder levitation and his wife fell off and hit her head after is broke durring performance. JUNK!!!

Here is what a " real " audience acupuncture looks like. :0)

http://wadelive.com/Acupuncture1.jpg
http://wadelive.com/Acupuncture2.jpg
Magic Patrick
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Who cares, Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares!
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2007-12-30 09:13, 61magic wrote:
I ran into Bill Smith at a magic convention in Las Vegas a few years back, he had several of his illusions on display.
It looks like one of them has been copied:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzY9Uz3Yuc&feature=related
http://dominikmagic.com/English/paypal/item048/item048.htm

On the surface this would seem like a clear rip off however when I examined the illusion and spoke to Bill I mentioned the fact it appeared to be a Lester Lake shredder working in a reverse direction.
He was quite firm this was not the same thing, stating the look, and method were different.
The only difference I found was a slight change to the method and the arm that moves the spikes.
Has Bill "reinvented" the shredder and claimed it as his own, or has a rip off been ripped off?


I say that the Steinmeyer created - Smith built "Audience Acupuncture" is sufficiently different from Lake's "Shredder" to stand on it's own.

The props shown on the YouTube videos are definitely rip-offs of "Audience Acupuncture".

I'm hoping Bill weighs in on this previous post.

Terry

Quote:
On 2007-12-30 14:24, BYUDAD wrote:
Who cares, Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares!


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Wade Live
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BYUDAD... Are you kidding me? Who cares? I’ll tell ya! All of us that purchase authentic illusions for their deceptiveness and quality brothaaa. Have you ever purchased an intellectual piece? Rip of illusions do nothing but harm all of the professionals working today.

Food for thought… Imagine spending $10,000 on a quality, deceptive and original prop and then have some unethical builder rip it off and poorly build it for $4,000. The hack builder then turns around and sells it to someone in your market! This person then showcases with this horrible piece of crap in front of the same buyers you’re trying to sell your show to. Not only is it poorly performed but he gives away the method to the mass because of the hack job. Would you have a problem with it then? Hmmm..

Are you a working professional? If you were you would not have commented like this. I’m learning everyday in this bizzzz. I’ll be the first to say I have made a few mistakes when I first started out. Gotta nipp it in the bud sometime right? The main problem is people that say " who cares?! ". We ALL should care. If we did, the hack builders would never sell ANYTHING! Right?? I donno.. Just my thoughts on the situation and personal experience.

Take care buddy! :0)

Wadini
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Hey Wade,
Don't sweat this BYUDAD guy too much,those type of people just try to get you going. "REAL" workers know the difference and do the right thing.

John
Corrupting the art of magic, one show at a time
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Wade Live
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I know... I think it's funny though. The Café..... Danggggg!
Christopher Starr
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Nice looking prop Wade! Congrats on your purchase.

Chris
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-30 09:48, Terry Holley wrote:
Now I see why this trio had such a hard time performing a knock-off of "Audience Dis-member."

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5ynAbBOZQSI

[...]


What I found really amusing is that whoever built the knock-off apparently missed one of the most important convincers that the genuine prop has to offer. Funny, funny, funny.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
61magic
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Quote:
I say that the Steinmeyer created - Smith built "Audience Acupuncture" is sufficiently different from Lake's "Shredder" to stand on it's own.


I totally disagree on this one, this is a reapplication of the same effect and most of the original method.
Had the Lake model been a current illusion in the regular performances of magicians most of us would cry foul.
I believe we are cutting undue slack because of the names involved.
Professor J. P. Fawkes
Magic Patrick
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Let me say it better this time. Just count on the Café about the post about rip offs. There is even one about snap illsions and they even said that they changed it enough to make it theirs. There was a big discussion about this and nothing came about with it. So keep fighting the good fight and you know what in the end it will still be the same outcome "the walmart theory" people will sacrifice quality to have something.

You are right I haven't spent 10,000 on a prop. I have only spent 4000 on a konundrum kube and never buy knock offs. If I am worrying about my competition then I must not be that good. After all, isn't the secret in the peformance? I mean anyone can do a trick, not everyone can perform a trick. I use the zig zag sometimes and people always say that they knew the trick but were entertained by my performance.

I know a few of the hardest working and busiest performers in the industry and they are even too busy to chat on the Café. The real pros if you will. When was the last time you saw a post from the big time pros on the Café? I am pretty sure it is less than 435 posts.

Why talk so much about rip offs? Will it stop them? If they are in your market it will make you looks that much better than them.

Keep your standards please BROTHAAA but lets talk about magic here on the Café.

BYUDAD

Posted: Dec 30, 2007 9:39pm
Do you know what we should really be worried about is people ripping off performances. Do you know how many people have done the rising card trick that is very similar to David Copperfield? They change it just a little to make it theirs. Now what type of message is someone sending if they don't buy rip offs (a good thing) but steal someones performance ideas (very bad thing). Now that is a little hypocritical to me. What do you think about that Wade?

BYUDAD (don't sweat me though)
The Drake
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BYUDAD is not endorsing ripoffs. He has made several posts against them. He is merely trying to say that our ranting can't stop them. The ripoff builders are still building and selling to those who will buy them.

There is another side to the coin however and that is that although its not pleasant and is often tiresome to go on about ripoffs... to ignore them and let them become "acceptable" in the magic world would be a worse option. Where would our next generation of magicians be if they grew up in a world where knockoffs were OK. Ignoring them will only give others the impression that they are ok.

I won't mention names but I know several young Café members who started off in magic with knockoffs and learned via others rants that its the wrong thing to do. ( how else will they learn otherwise if not from their fellow magi ) I still hear from some of them how they really want this or that but will wait until they can get the legit version.

Now THAT is a victory for magic indeed. I my opinion anyway.

A war is won..one battle at a time.

Best,

Tim
Blair Marshall
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But Tim, our converts are a few sheep amongst the wolves.

Young performers today (I would say a majority) feel that what they see and are exposed to on the web, is theirs to take (steal!)and freely use. You must also remember this is a generation that does not like to read, and in actual fact, do not even know how to use the tools they have at their disposal ie. the web, to truly educate themselves about the ethics of, the history of, the performance of...magic!


The core beliefs of a whole generation are in question. I know that seems heavy,
but why do you think movie production companies, music companies are having to fight for their lives. Whether you or I want to debate obscene profits etc. young people think whatever they can access, and copy, can be theirs! It belongs to them and they have the RIGHT to use it.

I see this every day with young performers, and from the young people I am exposed to. (Remember I have 3 at home 20, 22 and 23) For every one we save (!!!) there are a hundred more ripping off others. A good point above was the comment about performances being ripped off. We are only able to identify props that are being lifted. Trust me the ripping off of material is FAR worse and extensive!!!!

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Bill Nuvo
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I see a constant de-valuing(sp?) of everything in our society. Everything from Wal-mart to McDonalds adds to this trend. Quality has gone out the door (not just in products but in service as well). How can you convince somebody of the importance of quality and ethics when they won't bat an eye to download a song for free? It's not just the young. I know other artists who don't see a problem with it. How can you win when even musicians are taking away from other musicians?

It's a battle that I believe we will lose for the most part (in the numbers game anyway). We can only hope to provide a guideline for others to follow. Whether or not they chose to do so, is entirely a personal choice.

The positive side to this though, is that I've seen many performers step up their performances. The secrets hold very little value and in turn have forced a focus on the ART of magic instead of the mechanics of magic. The true secret is the value still created in artistic entertainment.
Blair Marshall
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Good post, I have noticed that many are concentrating on their performance and style, but their is still the issue of the material they are using (borrowing!)

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
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