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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
How close do you think a human-sized mirror box could be deceptive? Are there lighting restrictions? Could any of these issues be got around by the design? I would be looking at a design with both mi***rs meeting in the middle.
Thank you. Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Bill Nuvo Inner circle 3094 Posts or 2742 Posts |
Lighting is always an issue. Pick up a copy of Hiding the Elephant and Art and Arteface to get a lot of info on the issues you are looking for.
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
Meeting in the middle should not be an issue if properly designed. Stay away from direct spotlights. (Although the flash would only give someone "in the know" the method). I have a 2 person Drum Illusion, a Sword Box and a Stove Illusion all with glass m****rs. The Stove has a plexi door on the front, so this definately helps with the reflection issue.
M****r illusions are incredible for their deceptiveness. I can put my face at the front of my drum illusion and the "illusion" of emptiness is amazing. (Except for the crack, only kidding!! LOL) Blair Marshall "ShaZzam!"
Visit My Facebook Fan Page At
www.Facebook.com/BlairMarshallMontrealMagician www.BlairMarshall.ca www.ShaZzamShow.com www.MontrealMagicien.com |
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
I was wondering about thie because I may (may) considering using this method in living rooms? Is that too close?
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Much will depend on the design and logic of the prop itself. Is this for a production, vanish, or what?
The edges are sometimes a concern. A bit of extra care in the construction can remedy this. I have used a Headless girl, and a version of Spidora at very close range and it works fine. Genii had a close-up self-levitation by Hiro Sakai that used a m****r. I have not made one, but am intrigued enough by the idea that I may.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
The self levi sounds cool. It's for a human production, Michael, in living rooms. What do you think? Saying the prop was well made?
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Spellbinder Inner circle The Holy City of East Orange, NJ 6438 Posts |
Have you considered the weight, set-up and transportation problems of taking this from living room to living room? Or is this going to be a permanent fixture in your own living room?
Professor Spellbinder
Professor Emeritus at the Turkey Buzzard Academy of Magik, Witchcraft and Wizardry http://www.magicnook.com Publisher of The Wizards' Journals |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
I see a couple factors to consider. Unless you've discovered another way, pre-loading is required. This either means the audience will be brought into the room, or the box will, after it has been loaded.
A box large enough to contain a human, plus enough empty space for the m****rs to create the illusion of emptiness, is going to be a substantial piece of equipment. The ability of illusion boxes to appear smaller than they are, normally assume the audience is not standing right next to them. Visualize an Asrah couch. On stage, it looks minimal (or should). Up close, it's as big as a twin bed. A Disembodied cabinet takes up as much room as a refrigerator. I don't know if you plan to do this in your own living room for invited guests, or if you plan to drag this into other people's homes. In your own home, a box could be made that would more closely resemble a normal piece of furniture. To display something like that empty, and then produce someone from it, has (in my opinion) much potential. There would be ways of demonstrating it's apparent emptiness, without doing so directly. The areas of concern would take far less heat, because there would be some consistency to the environment, suspicion would be far less, and scrutiny would be replaced with assumptions based on casual observance of what would seem to be obvious facts. In otherwords, if you simply opened a cabinet to retrieve something from within, or place something within, or simply find it empty, while looking for something you thought might be inside, the fact that it appears otherwise empty would register in the minds of the audience, but in a subtle way, and not with heraldry and bravado. In this case, a well built piece of equipment would be very deceptive both visually, and psychologically. On the other hand, if you drag an enormous box into someone's home, show it to be empty, and without any other purpose for the box, produce a human, it really doesn't take a huge leap to narrow down why this thing was there to begin with. Even if it were visually deceptive (which can certainly be done), psychologically I'd fear it may risk failing miserably. There are however, design elements to consider that may help with this problem. Consider a divided space illusion as part of the method. This would render any one single component seemingly impractical for hiding a person. Some illusions that use this concept are actually very good close-up. A doll's house is one such. The available space is visually lessened by the angle of viewing. There doesn't seem to be enough space in the actual house to contain a person, and the table seems to have even less space, partially due to it sitting lower than the eyes watching it. A box like you wish to build, can take advantage of the combined methods. The upper portion hidden by the method you propose, while the lower part hiding via a method more similar to a doll's house. The difference being, in one box design there would somehow seem to be enough space to contain a person, even if it was shown deceptively empty. In the other, it would seem very unlikely that there is even enough space to hide a person, even without showing it empty. One other line of thought, would be to reverse the applications, much like a variation on the old Sphinx Illusion (the head in the box on the table). In this case, the hiding space uses the m****rs, but the point of the production (the box) would not. It could legitimately be shown empty. I can think of at least one of Osborne's illusions that uses this "satellite" hiding space, with the person being produced close by, but not in the exact same spot, as a head might vanish or reappear in a dagger box. With careful thought, something could be made that will work well.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-04 03:07, Michael Baker wrote: This is an important issue that is often not given the appropriate amount of consideration, IMO. In a typical 45-degree-mirror application, the load space is - at best - usually no more than 25% of the total cabinet. This ratio can be fudged a bit if the viewing angle permit, but for the most part 25% is a pretty good rule of thumb. What this means is that a box with a load chamber big enough to produce a person will necessarily have to be big enough, overall, to hold four people(!) It takes some tricky (and skilled) design work to keep that from looking clunky and enormous. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
"In a typical 45-degree-mirror application, the load space is - at best - usually no more than 25% of the total cabinet"
I have to assume you are meaning a TYPICAL 2 m****r application (ie. sword box etc.) as most Drum Illusions/Aerial Vanish/Stove Illusions the space used/concealed is almost 50% of the available space. Blair Marshall "ShaZzam!"
Visit My Facebook Fan Page At
www.Facebook.com/BlairMarshallMontrealMagician www.BlairMarshall.ca www.ShaZzamShow.com www.MontrealMagicien.com |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Even a box designed like the drum illusion, or the little toys, such as the cardboard Adams' box, the load chamber occupies only up to half the box. I've stood next to the base for the drum illusion before, and marvelled at the deceptiveness created by the m****r. But, the box was huge, none-the-less. On stage, not so much, but standing next to it, its actual size became apparaent.
That is why I suggested fooling the mind, as well as the eye. A divided space concept, possibly with different areas utilizing different techniques to disguise their true nature would work better close up. I think it is however, possible to carry this idea a bit too far. I saw one illusion (possibly done by Lance Burton) where a suitcase placed onto a table was opened and several girls stepped out. If there is such a thing as an illusion being too impossible, that may have been an example. The mind can go beyond missing (overlooking) a concept, and reach a point where it completely rejects it. Once this happens, it goes in search of other possibilities. The balance I think would come if the audience's subconcious logic would ask two questions: 1) "Is it possible for a person to fit in this box if I could not see the contents?" 2) If yes to #1 then, "Is it possible for a person to occupy only part of that box, so empty space can be shown?" Assuming surrounding areas cannot even answer "yes" to the first question, the closer you can get to answering #2 with "No," the more deceptive I think the illusion would be. Part of the person occupying one area, and part another, is a technique that steps off a path of straight line thinking. It is one step further for the mind to unravel. If it is not possible to physically separate the so-called box from the surrounding areas, then everything should be done to psychologically separate them. This is possible with careful designing. In a close up venue there may be one other consideration that just came to mind... Is there a way to prevent spectators from continual scrutiny of the prop after the fact?
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
Thank you everyone for such a thorough, thought provoking, and comprehensive discourse. Great ideas!
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-04 09:39, Blair Marshall wrote: Yes, Blair, that is what I meant - typical 2-mirror applications, such as Sword Box, Twister, etc. In the type of illusions you mention, where a single mirror is used, the load chamber is much larger - although it is also an awkward shape, making the lower portion of it somewhat difficult (or even impossible) to take full advantage of. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
TW,
The toes go down there!! LOL Blair Marshall "ShaZzam!"
Visit My Facebook Fan Page At
www.Facebook.com/BlairMarshallMontrealMagician www.BlairMarshall.ca www.ShaZzamShow.com www.MontrealMagicien.com |
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
The "gimmick" could also go the other way, couldn't it? with the larger load space down below? Thus reflecting the top of the container.
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-04 20:47, JamesinLA wrote: How would the girl exit the illusion?
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
I made an old-fashioned "Missing Middle" for a sideshow program I did. People were VERY close and couldn't figure it out. It used lights INSIDE the prop, reflected in the mirror, and it looked pretty good.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/......dle2.jpg |
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illusionman2 Special user 991 Posts |
My Neon Sword Box at the bottom of http://illusionman.8k.com/photo2_2.html
can be view from as little 1 foot away. |
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jimhlou Inner circle 3698 Posts |
The lights help cover up the gimmick. I have a 45 degree mirror box (human size) and I would never do it anywhere but on stage. Living room - never.
Jim |
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illusionman2 Special user 991 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-06 21:08, jimhlou wrote: Nether would I. I would never do in a living room. I just wanted to say the gimmick looks good from a foot away. |
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