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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Quick clarification-
I wasn't referring to your work Pete, but rather the comment that Medifro made. Only magicians do coin "magic", so we don't have to worry about routining... Right.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Pete McEwen Special user Durham, N.C. 576 Posts |
Thanks Ben, I figured as much. Just wanted to comment on it as well.
Pete
The magician formerly known as SPEEDcuber
"no one will believe the things we do if we don't believe them ourselves." - Slydini PeteMcEwen@mac.com |
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phillys Loyal user 232 Posts |
Pete, I think the videos are fantastic and I like how you try to make it look like you're performing for us as if we're sitting right in front of you. Felt so much better than all the other magic videos on YouTube where you can only see the hands and hear the over-played techno-crap.
Still, I also like how you move on or cover-up for botching the muscle pass. 1 out of 10 times, I would botch the muscle pass and I never thought of using that line of yours to recover from it I think I'll be doing a couple of videos just like you so that I can judge my own performances better.
K'Chai
Blog: http://dancingscrews.blogspot.com |
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Medifro Inner circle Miami 1258 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-07 19:29, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote: Ahem .. I didn't mean it this way, in fact, VERY FAR from it. I meant it from a layman's mind point of view. Laymen seeing a guy with cards: *Hey, I can do a card trick too*, so you would do something to get them hooked. Anything that the average Joe can't do. Laymen seeing a guy with a coin: *Hey, I never saw a coin trick before, show me what you got* that's what I meant. I really didn't understand the part where you say *And that's why magic isn't an art* ? Care to explain a bit? ~ Feras |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-07 23:02, Medifro wrote: Sure. It's almost never an art because most people share the same mindset you do. Hope that helps! Your friend, Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Medifro Inner circle Miami 1258 Posts |
Quote:
Sure. Ahem .. Even though I feel offended, I'll respond. Listen Ben, I'm one who work hard on his card magic presentation, I read a lot of theory, I try hard to get my spectator out of the feeling of *yet another card trick* to something that triggers emotion, thus astonishment. Since I talked about this in more detail in another post of mine, check my post in this thread ( even though I doubt you would, seeing your totally unproffesional act ): http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=2&17 Thanks for accusing me of not treating magic as an art, when you know next to nothing about me. I'm trying to be professional as I can, even though I consider this the mose offensive thing I was told concerning my magic. Pete, sorry for stealing your thread. ~ Feras |
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Zhang Special user 515 Posts |
Sure.
It's almost never an art because most people share the same mindset you do. Hope that helps! Your friend, Ben Are you sure you are Feras' friend? it certainly does not sound that way; I think anybody will be offended with your post,including myself. that is harsh man. WZ |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
I apologize, and allow me to rephrase my comment.
It's almost never an art because most people share the same mindset you EXPRESSED. I don't understand how you could argue with the viewpoint I expressed- why does card work need to be well thought out, both from a presentational and methodological standpoint, but coin magic is superb as long as no one knows where the coin went? If one wanted to argue semantics, to say card magic needs a premise because people have seen card work before but coin work doesn't because it is new to an audience is silly- pulling a coin from someones ear, making a coin vanish or appear, etc, are all standard "tricks" in many laypeople arsenal. And, if they DON'T know how to do said tricks, chances are they still know of them. From this perspective, I'm unsure why coin magic, as stated by you, doesn't need a strong or well defined premise. From a theoretical standpoint, one could argue that, in accordance with your previous statement, that as long as you are doing magic with a prop they haven't seen before, no premise or presentation is needed- they will simply say "Hey, I never saw a BLANK trick before, show me what you got" (Your words). Hence, no presentation needed for cap and pence, crazy cube, sponge balls, etc. While some tricks MIGHT be able to stand without patter, all will benefit from a well thought out presentation (and, most outright REQUIRE it). Feras, I DID read your post (I have NO life, and spend an insane amount of time trolling this madhouse we call a Café) and admire the though, detail, and work you put into turning silly card tricks into theatrical and engaging show pieces. Obviously, to you, card magic is an art, and can be approached as such. So, why do you hold coin work in such low regard? Hope that clarifies my viewpoint. All the best, Train
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
By the way, I will be releasing a new 4-volume DVD set with Magic Makers entitled "How to Make Friends on Internet Forums". Keep your eyes peeled for it!
(Includes Bonus effect "The Holy Grail of -insert effect here-")
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Medifro Inner circle Miami 1258 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-08 00:39, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote: I kept thinking about this for more than 15 minutes, and when you think about it, thanks for correcting my point of view. Why didn't you put it this way in your first post? This is an example of a post that makes me keep coming to online boards. I think its because I never did coin magic before, I have no experience in this what so ever. I said what I said because I used to get the impression of *doing another card trick* whenever I do card magic, while people get intrested more when I do something other than cards ( floating bill, ring thru finger .. etc Back then, they seem to like that much better than *pick a card* ), and this is why I thought seriously about stop doing cards, as I said in the post I didn't think you'll read ( ). So, to put my words in a cleaner sentence. Presentation is important in all magic regadless what type it is. Is it important in coin magic? Of course. Is it important in card magic? Hell yeah. I'm not regarding any magic branch as low, all I'm saying is that presenting card magic is harder than any other branch in my opinion. Because ( as I said in the thread I didn't think you'll read ) its either a hit or miss. Unlike none-card magic, where there is a middle ground. ( I think that makes sense .. again, no experience in none-card magic, this is merely what I think ) I do admit that I was wrong at some points, and I'm glad to see a well written post to correct me. Keep your posts this way, and you got yourself a fan ~ Feras I'm making *How to get into fights on internet boards*. My first day here I got into some argument with Top Hat ( hey man ), and now here. |
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Eric Jones V.I.P. Director of Product Development 2101 Posts |
Cool magic Pete. Keep it up.
Mr. Ben, I've read your comments and have silently agreed and disagreed with several points. Just to contribute to the debate, I'm of the opinion that not EVERY piece of magic(regardless of genre) has to have an emotional hook, and not every trick has to have a reason. Sometimes the only reason you need would be, "Allow me to show you a beautiful bit of magic." While I agree a story, a plot, and/or context will help qualify WHY the trick is being performed for a specific audience at a specific time, it isn't always neccesary. Silent manipulation, for instance, with balls and cards usually have no emotional hook. However, they can be strenghtened with a script of internal dialogue, as in the famed Cardini routine. On the other hand, does Jeff McBride provide an emotional hook with his world famous (some consider artistic) manipulations??? To take Feras' comment in another direction, I think coin magic has a tendency to NOT have an emotional hook when presented by so many coin magicians because honestly, for most of us it's difficult to logically motivate our manipulations into terms our audiences care about. A while back someone (I think Mr. Townsend) started a really great thread concerning the theatrical motivation for a coins across. The basic question, and I'm paraphrasing, was how do you motivate getting your coins to travel from hand to hand? This very basic question got a great deal of the coin guys on this forum thinking about their intentions, and how to generate a hook or at least how to invoke emotional response from their audiences(By the way, some of the best responses to this question have been Published in one way or another by Curtis Kam). I have my own reasons why it's easier to patter cards, but I'll keep them to myself for now, suffice to say that I personally have a much easier time motivating a small collection 52 pasteboard objects verses three beautiful, shiny, well worn, period pieces of silver. But I'm attending rehab down in Fayetteville NC the first week in April, and hopefully a consultation with some REAL coin guys will do my magic some good.
“We're two tigers away from an act in Vegas.” Greg House M.D.
<BR> <BR>http://www.ericjonesmagic.com |
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Magikrn Veteran user 333 Posts |
I thought both effects were fantastic but really like Trifecta. It was a humerous routine and it kept me interested. Most videos I click out of these days as I get bored easily. Thanks for the videos and inspiration!!
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Hey Feras,
The nature of your opinion makes more sense in context- my friends and family love to see non card simply because it is so rare for me to do it. But, in this context there is an INHERENT emotional hook- Me. They love/like me, and they don't mind watching my magic/tricks/crap. If you want to talk some more about presenting card magic, maybe we could do it in PM, so we don't hijack this thread? Eric, Several years ago, when I first started working for humans, someone pointed out that there was a fundamentals difference between a laypersons interest in magic and a magicians- a magician will watch just about anything, where as, to our chagrin, 75% of laypeople don't care to see magic (they may not be opposed to it, but they can take it or leave it). This statistic might change depending on a variety of factors, but it's usually true over the long run. The remaining 25% is made up of people who HATE magic, and those who LOVE it. When we run into someone who LOVES magic (like, thankfully, most people my age-22) our job is easier- silly people will watch ALMOST anything! Now, that doesn't mean we shouldn't give them the best and most well thought out material we can, but in this case there is an INHERENT HOOK- they love magic! I like pretty girls- you don't have to dress them up special for me to appreciate them (or, for that matter, at all). If someone LOVES magic, then the magic itself can be the hook. McBride DOES have a hook for his manipulation- people CAME to see him because they WANTED to SEE MAGIC- wish fulfillment (in this case wanting to see magic and heading to a magic show) is one of magic's STRONGEST hooks. Another thing to look at is that both you and Pete are likable guys. For those 75% of people I mentioned, they see a likable guy and charming person, and they give you a chance. Then they see you are skilled- much more so then they would have thought, and they enjoy the magic more then they would have thought possible. But, without a hook, a reason that they should care (other then you guys being mad skilled) it's nothing more then mastibitory magic- "look what I can do!" magic. There are a few people out there addressing this, and magic as a whole will be better for it! Peace! Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Medifro Inner circle Miami 1258 Posts |
These has to be the greatest 2 posts I've seen in the Café' so far, and both are in the same page!
Wow. Pete ... We love you? X-D ~ Feras |
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Eric Jones V.I.P. Director of Product Development 2101 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-08 08:46, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote: NICE.... I enjoy it when magicians are able to intellectually defend their positions, rather than regurgitating theories they've read. Just to clarify, it seems to me that you're saying in context to creating the emotional hook for our audiences that for those who believe no explanation is neccesary. For those who don't, none will suffice? Interesting......
“We're two tigers away from an act in Vegas.” Greg House M.D.
<BR> <BR>http://www.ericjonesmagic.com |
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Zhang Special user 515 Posts |
Apologies and life is beautuful again, that is why I love this country.
WZ. |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Hey Eric,
I'm not sure I understand... On a different note, I gotta share this story. I had to complete a skill assessment test today for school (containing English and Math components). If I did poorly, then I would be forced to take some remedial courses that earned me no credits. If I did really well I would be awarded the credits without needing to take the course! So, the math was ok. Don't have take remedial, but still have to take the course. But the English part was interesting. 20% of my mark came from a written portion (I got 111 out of 120- hells yah!) and the remaining 80% came from a written essay. I read my topic- Write about the ethical and moral consequences of gambling. !!! Not only is gambling one of my favorite subjets, but I JUST finished reading Betting and Gambling by Peter Green! So, not only am I mentioning stories from Forte, Slim, Ortiz, as well as gambling protocol, but I'm citing from 100 year old sources on gambling and morality like J. Green, Quinn, and a Christian textbook on the Evil of gambling! I didn't mention I was a magician, or that I had a passion for this subject- hopefully they'll just think I'm a genius and happened to study it on a lark! Crossing my fingers... Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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magicblademan Special user uk 523 Posts |
Pete watched them again,and I agree with Chad... I love the warts and all ..to me that bit of rawness gives it that edge....some times people will edit and record things to get them perfect ...in this case I don't think it needed that ..the muscle pass gives me a smile ,not because you missed "but the way you handled it ".
quote-" Not today ,i can't today" that made me smile and the way you never let it phase you ...you certainly entertained me as I don't always go back and watch things over again unless I really like it. Great job Blade.
If you put the time in....you will achieve ...
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James Alan Special user Toronto, Ontario 680 Posts |
Just wanted to announce the release of my lecture notes "How to stay on topic on internet forums" which you'll be able to get with Ben's "How to Make Friends on internet forums" as a package deal.
Compliments to Pete for the great excecution and also the guts to stick uncut performance videos online for feedback - it's hard to do because everything always looks worse under the unblinking eye of the camera unless you have L&L doing your editing. While they both fall under the category of "look at me"/masturbatory magic, there's nothing really wrong with that. Yes, Jeff McBride's King of Cards manipulation act is masturbatory magic, but it's just one part of a well textured (and on the whole, extremely meaningful) magic show. It's also ***ed impressive. The lesson is that it should be one part of a larger performance. On the other hand, both those routines have the right ingredients for a great magic competition act where the audience IS interested in seeing the magic for the magic's sake. The one thing that jumps out at me immediately is that both routines were done too fast. If the effects were simpler - say a one-coin flurry, then you could be quicker, but with 3-4 coins doing a lot of jumping around, you have to slow down: If the audience doesn't have time to assimilate the fact that you put a coin under your hand, then when you open your hand to show it's gone, you're more likely to get confusion rather than astonishment. (I realize that you're on video with no audience, I also tend to go faster with when no one's watching) Specifically regarding Trifecta, the routine is a bit too long, with needless repetition. Also the couple of times when you are confused by the magic, it doesn't quite ring true because you're recovering too quickly and so it seems scripted. As a reference, you may watch the master do it: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bZ6veWZQ9Hw - arguably the best youtube magic video you will watch in 2008. Notice how long he takes to assimilate when each time the black card turns up. The other thing which is lacking is a climax - there's no apparent reason for the trick to stop. I'll PM you a suggestion if you want. Lastly, my advice on anthropomorphizing your props: don't. If you, as an adult, say to the audience in a matter-of-fact way that the coin is shy, how are they supposed to take you seriously? If you want to say the coin is shy, wait until the coin has disappeared and then remark (in a clearly tongue-in-cheek tone) "Hmm, must be shy I guess." A coin or a card CANNOT be shy. A card or a coin can REPRESENT a person as part of a (non-contrived, plausible) story but even that's pushing it. Now to grab a bite to eat... back in a bit to help the thread get back off topic! |
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James Alan Special user Toronto, Ontario 680 Posts |
Is magic an art? Not in itself, no. But art is a horribly subjective thing as evidenced by this award winning masterpiece: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
Is it really worth anybody's time and energy trying to go around trying to convince people magic is an art? No. Does it matter? No. Performing magic (which is what you're supposed to do when you put "magician" on your business card) is first and foremost a form of theatre; of entertainment. (I hasten to add that entertainment synnonymous funny or amusing. If you think that, you need to get out more.) There are rules for entertainment. One of them is to know your intended audience. If you want to do magic for an audience you have to convince them of two things: 1. that you have something worthwhile to show them 2. that you are an interesting person who is worth spending time with It's hard for a lot of magic to meet those requirements because a lot of it is constructed backwards. The process sounds something like this: "Hmmm... this is a cute trick: interesting method, easy to do too - but will it be effective? I'd better look at it. It doesn't have much meaning. How can I add meaning? Perhaps if I borrowed the object and... then add a storyline ... that would make it more appealing. Still I have the problem of getting rid of the gimmick at the end. There isn't much to distract them while I do that is there? Wait! If I tell a joke, they'll laugh. That will give me plenty of cover. Yes that's fine. Especially if I add a couple of jokes in the beginning ot liven up the opening. Oh and let the audience hold the envelope. That's a great way to increase the impact. It will seem like it happens in their hands. My; this is really going somewhere..." (Wonder, Minch, 1996) Now take that trick which was just "constructed" and try to tailor it to an audience 20 years older than you are. You're better off trying to do "the baffling bra" at a Republican Party Dinner. "Worthwhile" and "interesting" are extremely variable things. Do I believe there are tricks where the magic speaks for itself and carry through without a well throught out presentation? Yes, but none of them involve finding the chosen card. |
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