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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-06 11:40, Mark Ennis wrote: LOL
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Gentelman,
I'm confused- if I purchase a product and don't like it, then I'm a fair reviewer. If I comment that I LOVE a product, then it's advertising? Note, I haven't commented on what I PERSONALLY think about the book, simply that it is clear that Mike likes it, and it met (or exceeded) all of his requirements and expectations. With that in mind, why couldn't it be a 5? Also note- Mike DID list some failings: "A Diminishing Lift: A take on the diminishing lift. This is Aaron's interesting way of making the sequence more pure. Although this is an interesting idea, I feel that most will prefer to stick with the standard." and seems to not be in love with the Undercover Switch. Now, we all know Mike is a little overzealous, and that might be a consideration to some. Fine. All I'm arguing is that it IS possible to give some material in a book less then perfect and still give the book a perfect score (feel free to argue the nature of the term perfect). Ben p.s. I do like the book, for the record, and use several of the ideas. I also LOVE the look and feel of the new paperback edition (which looks like a second printing LePaul, only better quality photos!)
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-11 15:19, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote: You can't really compare yourself to Mike, Ben. You're willing to trash something if you feel it needs it. A high score from you has some critical legitimacy. I'm of the opinion that high accolades should be sparing. People don't hesitate to hand out 10s, but when was the last time you saw somebody give someone a 1? And yet, if we take all the stuff out there and line it up from best to worst, isn't the implication that there should be some sort of grading from 1 (or even zero) to 10? Where do all those 1s disappear to? When I was doing ESL in Korea, one of the things that drove me nuts is that when testing kids at the private academies, we were assigned a grading sheet with the understanding that the lowest score we could give was a 6 out of 10. If the kid showed up to the oral test, and stared at you the entire time and said NOTHING, he'd get a 6. His records mean 6, but in principle, all of a sudden 6 means 0. What does 8 mean? What does 9 mean? The whole practice screws up the meaning of the metric. Now some other school with decent standards is having their own grading undermined. A 7 from a decent school might actually mean their student is better than an 8 or 9 from a school that gives grades away like candy. But now that decent school has to mess with its scoring systems so that they can present something that allows their students to compete with the other schools' students. Mike comes along and gives the book a "rare 10". Rare how? A 10 how? You're saying that this book is as good as everything that has ever been put out in magic literature since the dawn of time? That this ranks up there with the best work of Dai Vernon et al.? If you're going to make that claim, you need to be prepared to back it up. What's worse is that an irresponsible producer can then pick and choose those scores as they like, and use them to pump the product. So some shmuck gives a DVD 5 stars, which responsible reviewers (for example, over at My Lovely Assistant) give a 3, but you wouldn't know it because all you see everywhere is "5 stars!!!" "5 stars!!!" "Perfect score!!!" and this gets used as a noise machine to drown out the less enthusiastic reviews. Fine, that's marketing. But the last thing a supposedly unbiased reviewer should do is become complicit in that sort of thing. One of a reviewer's primary purposes is to serve as a safeguard against poor quality. When Mike goes and basically writes ad copy, he's undermining the trust of the consumer. That needs to be pointed out. He's written irresponsible reviews before over at magichat.co.uk that caused a lot of kids to buy products that they shouldn't have. He's now pushing a product and giving it a "rare 10". So what do we do? Do responsible reviewers have to start artificially increasing their scores to counterbalance this? Do people have to start giving out 12s and 13s out of 10 to show how a product ranks according to a supposed 10 out of 10? It's ridiculous. He's being unfair to the consumer by not putting more thought into his reviews. He's being unfair to himself by allowing this nonsense to continue to hurt his own reputation. He's even being unfair to Aaron, because a perfect score from Mike doesn't mean anything at this point, and he's basically attaching that stigma to Aaron's product. I had no problem with Mike's enthusiasm when he was trying to push his own material, because if it stank, the reviewers could point that out. But now he's invading the purview of the reviewer. That's got to stop. |
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3062 Posts |
Erlandish,
I do not agree with that in any way whatsoever. Ben was correct in the assumption that I judged the book as a whole and not effect by effect. It not only met, but exceeded my expectations and I truly felt it worth the review I gave it. I have no regrets in what I wrote at all. I do not see how my liking of a product is ruining it for the creator or author. Pardon me for being so blunt but I find that to be an utterly ridiculous assumption. We all have our own view of things. If you can't appreciate the time and effort I put into appreciating someone's work then do not listen or post. I am sorry that I think positively of magic and try to give everything the benefit of the doubt, as obviously this bothers you. I will admit to some mistakes in reviews in the past making a few hyperbolic claims within, and that was simply because being newer to magic than most I have not got much extraordinary stuff to compare it too. Are you saying that to give an honest review I must first own the best of the best and compare? I am 14 for goodness sake and and have not had the pleasure of looking at the best. It appears as though the only ones who may have ruined the chances of sales are those who have posted and blamed false claims on my otherwise harmless review. I mean, it's the same as saying, since I know you have a history of dislike for me, that your one own opinion has influenced the world and I am the most hated 14 year old on the planet. Same to anyone else, please just hear this: You don't have to agree with my review or me in general at all. I am just voicing my opinion. Any questions?
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
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On 2008-01-11 17:03, Michaelmystic2003 wrote: And in judging the book as a whole, you consider it to be as good as every magic book that's ever been written? What's going to happen when you finally get around to appreciating some of the real classics in magic, Mike? Are you going to give them 11s, 12s, 13s? Quote:
If you can't appreciate the time and effort I put into appreciating someone's work then do not listen or post. Uh... nice try. Until we start seeing some really responsible reviewing out of you, you're going to see concerns about your reliability as a reviewer questioned. I sat by and watched as you pitched that fraud over at the Magic Hat. I'm not going to sit by and watch you do it now. Do you want to man up and show a little integrity? Or do you want to hide behind being 14 years old? Tell me this, Mike, how old were the guys who bought products based on your positive reviews? Quote:
I am sorry that I think positively of magic and try to give everything the benefit of the doubt, as obviously this bothers you. Strawman argument. If you don't know what that means, go look up the term. Quote:
Are you saying that to give an honest review I must first own the best of the best and compare? To give an honest review you've got to show some awareness for the other stuff out there. You've not demonstrated that ability at a competent level yet. Look, if this is the stuff you want to write, you might want to do everybody a favour and go get hired by Penguin Magic or Ellusionist or Magic Makers or whomever and write ad copy for them. |
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3062 Posts |
You do make a good argument.. I apologize for my bluntness in my preceding post... I guess I got a little carried away.
Ben was also right about another thing... I can sometimes be rahter overzealous, and I also believe that as great as I thought the book was, it may have been a bit hyperbolic to have given it a perfect 10. I judged it according to my current standards and never thought to consider the greatest work out there. Thank you.
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Hey Erlandish,
Your post is vexing to me. One one hand, I cannot disagree with anything you wrote- your example with the ESL testing is brilliant, your hostility towards the reviewer (if well founded) is justifiable, and the grading scale you suggest seems fair (versus other benchmarks, like Erdnase, Vernon, Hilliard, etc). On the other hand, I know, deep down, that a book might be worth a perfect score despite not being as great as the classic texts. Allow me to explain. As a teacher, you assign an essay to be completed and provide a set of objectives that must be accomplished to get a good grade. One child turns in a paper that is well written, researched, and meets all the criteria you required. Subsequently, the child receives a perfect score. Another child turns in a paper that is all that PLUS much much more- going above what was asked for. This boy ALSO receives a perfect. Assuming you don't give out bonus marks, then both boys receive a well earned perfect, despite one paper being significantly better then the other. This is fair, no? As far as grading texts... it's very subjective. We could argue the influence certain books, or people, had, but we can't really debate the level of enjoyment someone receives or someones opinion of a material's worth, objectively. One mans trash... I think it all comes down to context. The problem here is we don't know anything about Mike's experience, or even Mike as a human- without this information we don't know how to properly interpret the information in his review. That said: I put very VERY little stock in most of the reviews I read here simply because I don't know what qualifications the reviewer has. But, if I meet someone, sit down with them, talk, THEN they recommend something, I know how to asses the suggestion. In the long run, I don't think Mike did anything wrong. Like most reviewers here, he simply didn't do anything (of any significance). A positive review on here, to me, is a way of saying thank to the producer, and a negative review is your way of expressing your displeasure. Nothing more. Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
Ben,
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see what you're saying about giving out a perfect score if your expectations are met, but it's in the implementation of that sort of outlook that we get problems. We get a whole bunch of products sharing the same score when there's massive differences in quality between them, and then you get big gaps at the lower end of the scale. The metric is so whacked out it's impossible to figure out what it really means, and it also does a disservice to those who pursue and achieve excellence at its highest level. |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
My contention isn't that the grading scale is out of whack, but rather the evaluation process.
Mike owns, lets say, 30 books. One of his favorites is Paper Engine. In fact, it is one of the best magic books he has ever read. He gives it a 10. The grade is appropriate, but his method for evaluating is skewed because of his personal biases- something we are ALL victim to. I love Brad Henderson's reviews, and usually agree with them. But there are occasionally products we disagree on. Who's right? The answer is subjective! Grade scores mean nothing to me. There are only TWO things I take into consideration when looking at a new product- WHO is giving the recommendation (same interests, someone who's opinion I respect, similar expectations) and WHAT the product is (If I'm simply not interested in purchasing a large illusion, I don't care how good someone's Wakling Sawing is). So my position is that I agree with you- it's just that it can't be helped. Ben p.s. I would be HAPPY to create a universal review process, with a fair grading scale. Just send your products to: Ben Train 69 Iwantfreeshit road Toronto
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3062 Posts |
I also an in agreeance with Erlandish while at the same time also really not. I based my review as being my own comparing of the book in question with the rest of the books in my library, and it is the one of the best so far... I'm sort of stuck in the middle... You, Ben, make some excellent points, as does Erlandish and it is getting rather confusing... I mean Ben, I know you and also trust and respect your opinion, but Erlandish I do not know on any level at all nor do I have the ability to trust and respect his opinion. But even so, when two arguments both sound correct, it gets rather confusing. However I do find Ben's to be the better of the two as it nearly accurately describes my reasoning while writing this review, and at the same time Erlandish makes valid points about what I have done wrong score-wise. Could somebody please settle the score?
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Like most things in life, there is no right or wrong answer.
Obviously I think I'm right. But I think Erlandish is as well. Ben p.s. Although I don't know Erlandish well, I respect his opinion, and LOVE reading his blog (which everyone should).
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3062 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-12 00:33, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote: Ben, Thank you so much for sticking around and backing me up but I really do feel as though (as good as I think the book is), that I should have taken other work into consideration while reviewing. I appreciate your help but Erlandish (although many of his points are laughable such as "My review hurting the creator", which I feel was a comment made based on his obviosu hostility toward myself as a magician), has made one valid point.. I should have taken other works into consideration. I officially withdraw my 10 score and drop it slightly to a 9. You are still correct in your perfect socre theory but I still feel as though I may have gone a bit overboard. Thanks friend, Michael
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Hey Mike,
As much as I love you, I wasn't trying to defend you. I was merely arguing that the score you gave COULD, hypothetically, be a 10, despite some of the material being less then perfect. It was a philosophical discussion on the nature of reviewing material.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Mike, you need to learn to take a breath, and perhaps refrain from hitting the "Submit Reply" button without first letting your post sit for a day or so while editing it and refining your thoughts.
Much of what you post seems to have been banged out in 5 minutes, which often forces you to back away from what your original statements, usually offering an "I'm sorry" at the same time. Your enthusiasm is obvious, it's actually envious. I wish I could maintain the constant excitement focused on magic that you obviously do. Unfortunately, I can't. Mike, because of your age and your knowledge, you have the potential to offer up a lot to the magic community in the coming years, but you currently combine attributes that make folks question you constantly. The way to get around this is to post far less often, make your posts extremely relevant to the discussion underway, refrain from offering "newly invented" effects lacking complete research on their provenance, offer up your knowledge in ways that actually help folks by answering their questions as opposed to making statements. ................In a nutshell, TAKE A BREATH!. "Think twice, and then bite your tongue" will get you a LONG way in magic, AND in life Remain enthusiastic my friend, you are truly one of the Magic Café's most effusive members........just dole out your thoughts on a MUCH more selective basis, and only after brutal editing on your part........make what you say count |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Mike,
I cannot think of ANY better adivce then what was offered to you by Mr. Silverking (of the famous Silverking tribe). All the best guys! Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3062 Posts |
Neither can I.. I truly appreciate you taking the time to write such fantastic help and kind words. Thank you.
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-01-12 13:14, silverking wrote: Silverking, I just thought I'd let you know how much Mike took your advice to heart. He basically just submitted the exact same review over to The Magic Woods. http://www.themagicwoods.co.uk/forum/vie......k=t&sd=a |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Ummm....
Burn.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
For what it's worth, it wasn't meant to be a knock at silverking. On every forum he's gone to people have tried to give similar advice. The result is always the same. Mike apologizes for his screw-up, thanks everybody for the great advice, promises to change his ways in the future... and then goes ahead and does what he wants anyway.
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3062 Posts |
I totally disregarded the need to edit that review. I feel extremely stupid at the moment, and Erlandish, that certainly was not my intent to "do what I want anyway". I just did something very stupid and thoughtless. I shall reread everything in this thread and think it over again. If it helps, the Woods post will be edited momentarily.
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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