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viris Regular user 106 Posts |
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On 2008-01-10 13:44, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: And this person does business with people? He sounds (reads) like a troubled person with a lot of anger. I have read a few of his posts where he is rude just like this. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On 2008-01-10 22:48, Dan Watkins wrote: The problem of practical one-handed coin vanishes is significant - and there are enough coin guys around now to make it worth the while of those how have solutions to come forth and get the appreciation (respect - money etc) their work deserves. Perhaps it's a good time to quietly ask them (PM, email or privately in person) about publishing/teaching/selling?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
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On 2008-01-11 03:43, Thomas Wayne wrote: that really is a good idea.... thank you Thomas. I wonder if dan is refering to P**ls or is there some new methods out there now |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Viris, there are a lot of people like this. Very well prepared and accomplished, absolutely have deep understanding of the discussion, deeper than most and sometimes all. Brings to mind others of the ilk; Coach Bobby Knight, Jack Nicholson, Donald Trump, Rudolph Guiliani, VP Dick Cheney, etc. With these men you are not in for any easy chess game and it will be anything but nice. And they could win or lose mightily, depends upon how they feel. I can see him smiling about that, it's his kind of line-up in one way or another...
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Zhang Special user 515 Posts |
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On 2008-01-11 03:43, Thomas Wayne wrote: TW, thanks for that idea I'll give it a try. WZ. |
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
I must be missing something, because in my opinion a solution to the last coin is not difficult.
There are numerous ways to show a coin at the fingertips and then to show the hand completely empty, for example by using a pu**, a hold***, a one-handed sl***ing technique like a Pump*** See* vanish, etc. Some would argue that a number of solutions, like use of a pu** or a hold***, are not "practical." I'd ask, practical in what context? In the context of performing impromptu? Of course not. In the context of performing professionally while wearing a jacket? Yes, those solutions are practical in most circumstances. Maybe some magicians are looking for a method that will fool other magicians. I'm not. The more interesting issue in my mind is whether or not vanishing the last coin at the fingertips is the best way to end the routine and if resolving that issue means that the search for the Holy Grail is over. I've seen an alternative ending which, in my opinion, is much stronger. I say that not to tease (the details are not mine to share), but to suggest that maybe thinking about something other than the last coin would be useful. Larry |
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viris Regular user 106 Posts |
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On 2008-01-11 08:42, Mb217 wrote: You are not comparing him to thoses men are you? May be Guiliani cause he is a dope but not the others. This person is disturbed. I suppose you can post what you want. My question is would these people say these things to there faces? I don't think so. |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
I can say, from those that have been on the end of it, that Thomas WILL say these things to people's face. I have heard this from several noted magicians, who like Thomas, but have had things said to them that made them question if he really said what they just heard him say.
Whatever you want to say about Thomas and his use of, or lack of, tact, he is not one to hide behind his keyboard. |
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viris Regular user 106 Posts |
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On 2008-01-11 11:45, Chad Barnard wrote: Ya, but all I'm saying is if he said to me, something that I worked on was a "turd", he might leave with his glasses broke that's all I'm saying. He is disrespectful. A couple of weeks ago he was talking (writing) about someones dead mother. It's uncalled for. |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
I agree with you viris, I'm just wanting to be clear that Thomas doesn't seem to be one of those that suffer from "internet bravery".
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Think you got your answer viris, and as comparing him to the men I mentioned, funny you would call Guiliani a dope and not Bobby Knight, but to each his own. They are all confrontational men, bright and accomplised and don't shy away or hide from controversy, many times that they themselves start. Funny, as a prosecuting attorney, Giuliani took on the Mafia and brought down a cheiftain amongst many others. He might be a lot of other things, but a dope he is not...actually none of them are. But perhaps each of them is not well liked for the things they do and say in being their own man, no matter what. Like I said, it's not any easy chess game with these sorts of guys...clearly you see that and it has been spoken too. Anybody can be not nice in the dark, but the men I mentioned do it in the light, there is no hiding or seeming fear. So just know that when you swing on a man with glasses it might not be nearly as easy as you might think, not to mention that it would probably change nothing at all.
*But as to the last coin issue, of all the possibilities mentioned by Larry here (who incidentally where's glasses too) he is missing the one simple method that the young Miss perhaps used in her beautiful 3Fly rendition, and very well at that.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
Ok folks this one is going to be long, so bear with me.
I have been criticized, by Thomas, for using old quotes to support my argument. On posts made a month or so ago he proudly quoted Eric Decamps from a 2001 Genii post. He used this as ammo that the assertion that Chris stole from Jonathan has proven to be untrue. That's fine and that's not what I'm arguing. Quote:
On 2008-01-09 22:22, Thomas Wayne wrote: Thomas has also said that Kohler use of the word "freaked" didn't imply that he was impressed with Jonathan's trick. Let's see what Mr. Decamps, a highly-respected magician and the first to see the routine, said in 2002: Quote:
Jonathan first showed me his routine in the Fall of 1986 at the old Rubens restaurant here in NYC. He did it masterfully and blew me away. He then proceeded to teach me his theory and handling in detail. It still has some great moments that none of the newer versions I have read or seen have ever included. Certainly someone of Eric's caliber would be able to judge magic "masterfully" done and a piece of crap. You made this statement in a 2004 Genii post: Quote:
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so - regarding revisionist history - here's mine... If you would have read Eric Decamps post back in 2002, you would have seen this: Quote:
Jonathan was the first, to my knowledge, to do the routine at the finger tips. So your knowledge in 2004 was wrong. Jon's routine WAS performed at the fingertips. Unless you're now saying that Eric is lying as well? Quote:
On 2008-01-09 22:22, Thomas Wayne wrote: To my knowledge, and Curtis can correct me, that Curtis Kam coined the term "VCA" and, from what he has said to me, he considers Jonathan's the first one. As for him revising his routine for the 2006 Genii article, which I'll have more info on in a later post, according to Richard Kaufman it was the same as the material that Jonathan let him see in 2004: Quote:
I've read Jonathan's privately written history of how his seminal coin trick was created. It's fascinating and reveals with startling clarity how his handling was developed. It should be noted that Kaufman is the publisher of Kenner's book "Totally Out of Control." So what side he's on shouldn't be an issue. Quote:
On 2008-01-10 18:54, Thomas Wayne wrote: To me it's a matter of ethics. I have a related story. A notable coin magician, considered one of the great mind's in magic, told me a story of seeing Bobo perform "Passing the Buck". Now this notable coin magician thought the trick wasn't very good or deceiving, but he loved the concept. It inspired him to come up with a trick using the concept. Now in actuality, there is a huge difference between his routine and "Passing the Buck", but in all of the literature and videos using this trick, he never fails to credit "Passing the Buck" as the genesis of his routine, even though he thought it was "unworkable". I don't mention his name, because this was a private conversation, so I've worded it so that you won't be able to easily determine the person who said this. Now he's not the only one that thinks it's ethical to do these things. Take Jon Racherbaumer. I think everyone on here knows that name and the respect it carries in the community. Here's what he said in 2004 several posts below yours: Quote:
However... Seems like Jon is in line with how I and the noted coin magician think. Around the same time, Mr. Racherbaumer also said that Jonathan Townsend was the "unsung hero" in the whole 3Fly debate. Now, I'm not talking about the mudslinging between Kohler, Kenner and Townsend (back and forth) that has went on since. That's another discussion. Jonathan's place in the beginning of it has been acknowledged by everyone. Some of these names include Kohler, Kenner, Decamps, Kaufman and Racherbaumber. For you to justify discredited him because he has made "unjustified" accusations towards other is amusing. I think if you look at the words of the people who were there, Jonathan's claim to VCA is pretty solid. Even the guy who coined the term agrees. Whether Jonathan revised his routine for Genii is another issue and one I hope to have more on by day's end. |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2008-01-11 08:31, Joshua Barrett wrote: Dan is an extremely skilled and clever magician, especially when it comes to coins, and I feel fortunate to have had the opportunity to bounce ideas back and forth with him for the last several years. In that bouncing we have discussed a number of different classic "problems", including "the last coin" - which is a problem contained in many routines besides "3Fly". Dan has a number of very good solutions, including the one I actually consider the best all around solution. Unfortunately, this solution includes unpublished input from two other well-known magicians AND closely mimics that of yet another magician whom we both know and respect. Until such time as that magician sees fit to share his solution with the public, we are honor-bound to keep it to ourselves. Incidentally, Dan's technical handling of that solution is the best I've ever seen. But to answer your question directly, Joshua, it's not "new", per se, because it was first done several years ago - but it is unknown to the vast majority... and, no, it's not "P**ls". As for my "Twilight on Steroids", take care to note that magnetic half-dollars will cling to the back of the mirror on either side (heads or tails) because the vinyl material has both north AND south poles on a single surface - this is a definite advantage. Also, the half-dollars will stick to each other, which means you have to manage how you handle them near one another, but it also means that you can stack them together on the mirror's back. Just be aware of the additional weight that might cause them to inadvertently fall off. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2008-01-11 12:36, viris wrote: I think you missed Chad's point, "virus" (T.L.?). What he's saying is that, unlike you, I am not an anonymous COWARD. Nor do I lie about the facts. I referenced someone's mother - without knowing she was dead - and that poster responded saying that his mother was dead and that he wasn't bothered by what I had said - which was not derogatory, by the way. But that's the TRUTH, something a cowardly cheap-shot-artist like you wouldn't know or care anything about. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
Quote from me: "So your knowledge in 2004 was wrong. Jon's routine WAS performed at the fingertips. Unless you're now saying that Eric is lying as well? "
I'd like to rephrase this. I've tried, on this topic, to stay away from these kind of "inflammatory" worded posts. It should have read: "Jon's routine WAS performed at the fingertips." I know, from you earlier posts, that you would never discredit Decamps integrity and apologize to him and you for even posing the question. I'm honestly just trying to get to the bottom of this. I don't care who gets the credit as long as it's the one that deserves it. |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2008-01-11 13:19, Chad Barnard wrote: Chad, you are truly an expert at what bible scholars call a "proof search" - wherein people search the bible for "proof" of their contentions, all the while ignoring anything that might contradict what they want to prove. Apparently you fail to notice that NOWHERE did I say "Townsend's Blossom" contained NO coins-at-fingertips moves. It does - in the first phase - and it is this aspect that impressed Kenner and Kohler way back when. In the above quote I am referring to the bulk of the routine that uses "[...] open palms and back clips and other various things that make it VERY different from Kenner's hands-up coins-at-fingertips "3Fly" [...]". But keep searching, Chad. And, as usual, ignore anything that doesn't support your beliefs. You might do well to remember, though, that there are at least three write-ups of "Townsend's Blossom"; one from the 80's, one from 2004, and the one published in Genii. I have all three; they are not the same, and - amazingly - Townsend got much better over the intervening years... lol. Comparing the three manuscripts kind of reminds of the t-shirt that reads: "The older I get the better I was!" Enjoy your "search". TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
I really don't see why Jonathon's claim on the V.C.A. is being questioned.
To My way of thinking if it was someone else's idea wouldn't they have come forward when all this came about? There are enough names that back up the fact that Jonathon is the one that came up with the original visable coins accross. There seems to be no other person involved before him. If there was again they would have come forward. No one has so what does that tell you? Twisting of the known facts does not prove that Jonathon did not come up with this, no matter how much you beat on your chest and turn blue in the face holding your breath in the hopes that someone will feel sorry for you and agree with you. |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
I think everyone agrees that Jonathan's "Blossom" was multi-phased and that Kenner was inspired by that one phase alone. I don't think that that is a question.
Please show me the information that I'm neglecting, it is in no way intentional. I was looking forward to your comments on Decamps opinion of the routine. Admittedly, that there were faults, in his opinion, to the routine, which he tried to correct in his handling, but the initial viewing of it "blew him away". I was also looking forward to your thoughts on Racherbaumer's comments. I have stated this too many times, but you have admitted, in previous posts, that you have never seen the original red write-up. You've seen a copied manuscript. Was this from Kohler? If you've seen the original since your post a few months ago, then I apologize, but by your own admittance you haven't seen the original, so I don't see how you can comment on that one. I like searching. I don't see how it will hurt. |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
Something you said earlier struck me:
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On 2008-01-10 15:54, Thomas Wayne wrote: This is my point. Take "Spellbound" for example. Spellbound, to most of the magic community, is a category. People refer to tricks as "Spellbound-type" tricks. "Spellbound" is a routine Dai Vernon using ideas, that he credited, to Edward Victor's "The Changing Coin". Victor's trick was inspired, although not credited, by an 1899 effect by Ellis Stanyon called "Florin v. Penny". If you look at Victor's book his labeled moves G & H are the first phase of Stanyon's routine. Now "Florin v. Penny" is a three-phase effect. The first is what is traditionally called Spellbound, then the coin switch is performed with the first reference to a tossing thumb-palm switch/vanish that Scarne, decades later, took credit for and finally the coin is vanished by the earliest mention of the Pocket Vanish. This vanish is the one that completes a lot of the "complete vanishes" in Bobo's. On Roth's ECM DVD's and the Magic Makers "Modern Coin Magic" DVD's they show how to do "The Vernon Spellbound". The one they perform is the first part of Stanyon's "Florin v. Penny". Vernon's routine has an entirely different handling. Since "Spellbound" is now a category and the name for it was coined fifty years after Stanyon's trick, Stanyon still gets the credit for what we now refer to as "Spellbound". I don't see how VCA is any different and am honestly wanting info on why it's different in this case, if it's really out there. |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
I posted a post on Genii, which you can find here:
http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/u......t=002305 to get info from people that hang out there and not over here. Here's what Richard Kaufman had to say about the discussion: Quote:
Bob Kohler knows quite well that he saw Jonathan Townsend do his Coins Across, which has one phase where the hands are held near chest level and the coins are held at the fingertips, long before he ever thought of Ultimate Three Fly. End of story. By removing Jonathan's name from the credits he is changing history. He had some choice things to say about Wayne, but you'll have to go there to read them. I don't want this thread to erased because of it. Let me just say that Kaufman has a strong opinion about Wayne. For those that don't know, how could you not, Kaufman is the editor of Genii and publisher of the David Roth book, The Kurtz book, the Kenner book, the original Sankey book and several others. He is one of, if not the, most important publisher/writer of printed material on modern magic. I think his word carries some weight that shouldn't be disregarded as quick as my "opinions" have been. Here's another post on the same thread by Dustin Stinett, another highly respected authority in magic: Quote:
From what I have read and seen (including Chris Kenner talking about it), it is my opinion that Jonathan Townsend absolutely should be credited. It’s true that the “VCA” as created by JT was a segment inside a larger piece. It’s also true that JT did it with the hands at waist level (it was Kenner who brought it up to chest level). But those factoids in no way diminish his contribution to the effect now called “Three Fly.” Kohler? Wayne? |
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