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Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-11 15:50, Chad Barnard wrote:
[...]

On Roth's ECM DVD's and the Magic Makers "Modern Coin Magic" DVD's they show how to do "The Vernon Spellbound". The one they perform is the first part of Stanyon's "Florin v. Penny". Vernon's routine has an entirely different handling.

Since "Spellbound" is now a category and the name for it was coined fifty years after Stanyon's trick, Stanyon still gets the credit for what we now refer to as "Spellbound".
[...]



Thank you, Chad... you argue my own point very well indeed. Just as we don't refer to "Spellbound" as "Stanyon's Spellbound", so also should we NOT refer to "VCA" as "Townsend's VCA" and it is definitely not “Townsend’s 3Fly”. Credit within the documented history of the genre is fine; re-naming an entire genre for one simple contribution is not.

Quote:
On 2008-01-11 15:29, Chad Barnard wrote:
[...]
I have stated this too many times, but you have admitted, in previous posts, that you have never seen the original red write-up. You've seen a copied manuscript. Was this from Kohler? If you've seen the original since your post a few months ago, then I apologize, but by your own admittance you haven't seen the original, so I don't see how you can comment on that one.
[...]


I've never seen the original Declaration of Independence. I've never seen the original Emancipation Proclamation. I've never seen the original Gettysburg Address. I've never seen the original...

Well, let's just say there are many, many, many documents of which I have never personally seen the originals. But that doesn't mean I haven't seen FAITHFUL copies, and that doesn't negate the understanding I have of the contents of those documents.

Quote:
On 2008-01-11 16:57, Chad Barnard wrote:
[...]
Kohler? Wayne?


I've come to realize that you are more of a "rebel rouser" than anything else, Chad, and the part you enjoy most is the argument. There is an old saying: “Never wrestle with a pig; You both get all dirty, and the pig likes it.” You’re obviously grasping at straws with your “original vs. copy” argument trying to keep something alive that has probably run it’s course. But hey, nitpick all you want. When... er, I guess I should say IF you come up with something that has any real significance I might take time to address it – though I suspect Kohler will not have much use for you at all. 'Til then I'll just let you waste your own time... but probably not a lot more of mine.

After all, letting things go is a good goal too.


TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
viris
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Quote:
On 2008-01-11 14:40, Thomas Wayne wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-11 12:36, viris wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-11 11:45, Chad Barnard wrote:
[...]

Whatever you want to say about Thomas and his use of, or lack of, tact, he is not one to hide behind his keyboard.

Ya, but all I'm saying is if he said to me, something that I worked on was a "turd", he might leave with his glasses broke that's all I'm saying. He is disrespectful. A couple of weeks ago he was talking (writing) about someones dead mother. It's uncalled for.


I think you missed Chad's point, "virus" (T.L.?). What he's saying is that, unlike you, I am not an anonymous COWARD.

Nor do I lie about the facts. I referenced someone's mother - without knowing she was dead - and that poster responded saying that his mother was dead and that he wasn't bothered by what I had said - which was not derogatory, by the way.

But that's the TRUTH, something a cowardly cheap-shot-artist like you wouldn't know or care anything about.

TW

Ken Howe Everett, MA I'm not an anonymous COWARD anymore. Now if your ever are in town why don't you look me up, please, and we can talk about me being a coward. Dam shame I'm never in Alaska hmmm. Peace. Oh BTW I'm not T.L.Smile
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-11 19:07, viris wrote:
[..]
Ken Howe Everett, MA 02149 I'm not an anonymous COWARD any more. Now if your ever are in town why don't you look me up, please, and we can talk about me being a coward. Dam shame I'm never in Alaska hmmm. Peace. Oh BTW I'm not T.L.Smile


Great. Good job of finally manning up. Now just put your real name in your profile and no one will ever think you're an anonymous coward again.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
viris
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Quote:
On 2008-01-11 19:10, Thomas Wayne wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-11 19:07, viris wrote:
[..]
Ken Howe Everett, MA 02149 I'm not an anonymous COWARD any more. Now if your ever are in town why don't you look me up, please, and we can talk about me being a coward. Dam shame I'm never in Alaska hmmm. Peace. Oh BTW I'm not T.L.Smile


Great. Good job of finally manning up. Now just put your real name in your profile and no one will ever think you're an anonymous coward again.

TW

"finally manning up", Do you know me? What if I want to be anonymous? Who are you to say anything? See you are right, I did man up and I'm not anonymous anymore and I will update my profile. But you will still be the same jerk as allways.Smile
Chad Barnard
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I've learned from the countless supportive pms, emails and especially from the posts at Genii that there's no need to argue with you because you don't know what you're talking about.

Just one other thing to clear up and I'm done:

Bob Kohler said this in an earlier thread regarding this topic.

"The reason the dates apparently don't match up is that this happened at the NY Magic Symposium in the summer of 1984 not 1987."

Now Jonathan questioned him, but didn't get a response. You and Hart proceeded to bash me on that and other threads that I was proven wrong and was a liar. Here's what I found on Genii today from Eric Decamps:

Quote:
Although Jonathan showed it to me in 1986, it was clearly obvious that he had worked on it for quite sometime before showing it to me.


How could Bob have seen it in 84, when Decamps was the first to see it in 86 and introduced Kenner to Townsend at the 87 convention?

Here's Eric again:
"I did introduce Jonathan Townsend to Chris Kenner. To quote Bill Murray’s character in the movie Stripes, “That’s a fact Jack”. It happened at the last New York Magic Symposium (honoring Dai Vernon) which was held at the New York Sheraton. If my memory serves me correct that was the summer of 1987."

I know I won't get an apology for all of the names and comments made to me for getting the date wrong. Even though now, it seems I didn't. I think it's easy to tell who is trying to rewrite history.

For those who didn't see it the first time here's the thread where Kohler corrects my date:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=60

Watch a few posts later, Wayne starts in with the nyah nyah nyah. Who's laughing now? Kohler, can you please explain giving an obviously fake date?
Chad Barnard
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Ahem...
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-11 19:19, Chad Barnard wrote:
I've learned from the countless supportive pms, emails and especially from the posts at Genii that there's no need to argue with you because you don't know what you're talking about.

[...]


Ah yes... the inevitable "people-who-support-my-position-but-won't-actually-post-to-this-thread-for-whatever-reason argument. Well, I know for a fact that my imaginary friends know more about it than your imaginary friends - lol.

As far as I'm concerned, I really am done with this debate. You've skewed it all over the map, but my original position - that "VCA" is far too broad a category to credit exclusively to Jonathan Townsend" -remains and is, I think, well defended. At this point I really don't care about who posted what on what date or he said she said or whatever. As I said earlier, I've realized I'm wrestling with a pig and I just looked down and I've got mud all over me now. So I'm done with it.

But I will make one last point. You've been into magic (according to your own statements) about one year now. In that time, what have you contributed to the art? Sure you've been in a few arguments - which you universally believe you've won - but other than that, what have you really given your fellow magicians? The benefit of your research into the deepest minutiae of coin magic? That about it?

Meanwhile, the contributions to the art offered by Bob Kohler are legend - way too numerous to count. My own modest contributions can't be really be compared to yours, because your score is zero, and it's pretty hard to factor with zero. So let's just take a quick look at this one thread. In it you've debated relentlessly, and with furious abandon, but what has the community gained? Pretty much nothing.

I, on the other hand - and with just two posts - have probably changed the thinking of just about anyone who finds Paul Harris' "Twilight" an interesting effect to perform. What I gave up in this thread is some undeniably good work that I have personally kept close for over 10 years.

Now, you are entitled to think that I "don't know what [I'm] talking about", but as a beginner who has pretty much contributed nothing to the art... well, I guess I just have to consider the source.

Beyond that, you disagree with my assessment of the level of Townsend's contribution to the "VCA", and I am fine with that . I'm not going to debate it with you any further because, frankly, I have much better things to do.

Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
edh
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Wow, that reference to the guys mother was absolutely uncalled for. I'm really suprised that he is still on this board.
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Art190
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"Ah yes... the inevitable "people-who-support-my-position-but-won't-actually-post-to-this-thread-for-whatever-reason argument. Well, I know for a fact that my imaginary friends know more about it than your imaginary friends - lol."

I am one that supports Chad and let me tell you, I am VERY glad we have people like him here at the Café. People that just want to do the right thing and get things straightened out. Unlike you, he tries not to be disrespectful and I would MUCH rather have a guy like Chad here than someone who is a hardheaded disrespectful person, regardless the contributions you've made to the magic community. Sure, you've probably brought great things to our art..but your attitude is what you need to fix Thomas. Oh, and if it wasn't for Jonathan, who knows if we would even have "3 Fly", so show a little more respect.

Art
Chad Barnard
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I'm just a guy who loves magic and especially the art of creation. I think all creators should be honored for what they've contributed, regardless of their personalities.

I should hope that you've brought more to magic in your decades in the art. It would be laughable if you hadn't. Go on and compare yourself to me, if that makes you sleep better. It's no contest, nor should it be unless I was some virtuoso, which I'm not.

If you want a more realistic image, compare yourself to those that have been around as long as you have and then we'll see what's what. Coming after me is easy.
rutabaga
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For what it's worth, as a fairly objective observer here, I have to say I think Chad's done a pretty good job, and shown some admirable fairness and restraint.
viris
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Quote:
On 2008-01-12 01:19, rutabaga wrote:
... I have to say I think Chad's done a pretty good job, and shown some admirable fairness and restraint.

I second that.
Gary Yin
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Well, there was once incident in my state where a plane overshooted the runway and fell down a hill.

They check the cause of it by the blackbox, that the copilot said to the captain "Sir, we are too high." The captain said, "It's okay" Then the copilot still empahsize "It is too high" Captain still insist "We are fine".

And they landed at the middle of the runway and overshooted and all died in the plane. Well for one thing is know your position and role. The CoPilot give in to the wrong judgement of the Captain and that caused their life. It was the CoPilot's 4th flight in his career as a profesional.

Then they checked the Captain's health record that he had some brain problem. Ya ya I know that the Airline's fault to not restrict him for flying. But that's not the point. Leave that aside.

So even the more experienced person that had flown for thousands of hours does something wrong but that doesn't give him the right and authority bring others with him. If you see him doing a wrong decision, you have the right to go against it if you feel it. The CoPilot who was only his 4th flight has the better judgement, to spot that it is a faulty approuch. However he give in to the captain and follow through the landing and it just end. If he had restraint the captain from flying and took over control to circle around, then everyone would have survived.

Study and analize the situation, bring up the points and reference then stand and defend your points.

The 'Who are you compare to me/him? kind of attitude should be left aside. Everyone's even and same position.
yrag89@hotmail.com (msn msgr)

Gary Justin Yin.
Nathan Coe Marsh
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Quote:
Credit within the documented history of the genre is fine; re-naming an entire genre for one simple contribution is not.


The fundamental idea that underlies every subsequent version is not a "simple contribution." It is the thing, without which, none of the other versions would exist.
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-12 01:19, rutabaga wrote:
For what it's worth, as a fairly objective observer here, I have to say I think Chad's done a pretty good job, and shown some admirable fairness and restraint.


Doing the math from a few of his posts, we know that Chad's been "into magic" for about a year now. Do you really think he's done all this deep research into ancient coin magic in order to discuss tricks found in Hoffman’s “More Magic” from 1890? Do you really think he’s studied the work of Edward Victor, Nelson Downs, Ellis Stanyon? Don’t you recognize that same sort of pondering style from another Café member?

Rutabaga please…(hey, I kinda like the way that rolls off the tongue)

Wake up. Chad’s been spoon-fed his “rebuttals” by Jonathan Townsend for practically this entire thread. Reread his posts and it’ll become so obvious that you may laugh out loud like I did when you realize it.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
magicblademan
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I also agree that Chad as come on here and shown the respect to other people regarding this debate.I do a 3 fly myself and so do most coin guys,and to me finding out who the originator(s) are is right as credit should be given to the said party who helped this along the way.

I would never have found the originator (s) if it was not for discussions on this forum,so yes there are lots of people who want to know the facts.
If you put the time in....you will achieve ...
Chad Barnard
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Man you make it so easy to knock these out of the park.

Question. You're friends with Dan Watkins right? You respect his opinion right? Ask him if I've been reading all of this stuff or getting it from Jonathan.

Trust me, you won't like the answer.

If Dan's not good enough how about Father Cyprian, Steve Dusheck, Michael Rubinstein, Al Schneider, David Neighbors, Curtis Kam, Jim Maloney or Richard Hatch?

All of these guys know what I'm up to and will tell you, you're dead wrong. Now the ones I mentioned that read this board, I'm fine with you telling Thomas what I'm up to, but please don't give him access to it. It's my hard work and time that I'm offering up for free.

To the rest of you coin nuts don't worry, in the future it will be free to others as well. In the grand scheme of things, it's in an embryonic state, although it's been going on for several months now.

I'm a member of Conjuring Arts.org, The Learned Pig and have purchased almost every book on Lybrary.com that has the slighest mention of coins. I also purchase books the old fashion way. A couple of weeks ago I picked up "Magic without Apparatus" from Harry Anderson's personal collection.

So once again you're wrong, Thomas, but thanks for trying.

Thanks to all of the people that posted on here. Hopefully Bob will see this and reconsider. Thanks again to all that have sent and continue to send pm's and emails of support. It really does mean a lot.

ps...I sent Dan a pm regarding my Stanyon Spellbound find at the end of November/first of December. Why would Jonathan want me to do that?
Art190
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"Doing the math from a few of his posts, we know that Chad's been..."
"Do you really think he's done all this..."
"Do you really think he’s studied the work..."
"Chad’s been spoon-fed..."

Hmmm, listen to yourself Thomas. Your last post was mostly about Chad. All you can talk about is Chad. I think you really like him. Either that, or you're afraid he's going to win this argument and want to make him look as bad as you posibly can (not to mention he can't look as bad as you're making yourself look).So quit trying to change our thoughts about Chad because I'll assume that's what you're trying to do..it's not going to work. And just for your information, Chad has done a lot here at the Café. I really learned a lot about the history of "3 fly" from reading threads that he was involved in.

Art
Zhang
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Art190,

I agree with you 100%. Chad is a very fair and polite person as far as I read his posts here at the Café.

WZ.
Thomas Wayne
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Sorry, but I'm not convinced.

Anyone who does much writing develops a distinctive style, and if you read this thread completely you can almost smell when Chad is writing in his own style and when he's probably being prompted by J.T...

Quote:

This is my point. Take "Spellbound" for example. Spellbound, to most of the magic community, is a category. People refer to tricks as "Spellbound-type" tricks. "Spellbound" is a routine Dai Vernon using ideas, that he credited, to Edward Victor's "The Changing Coin". Victor's trick was inspired, although not credited, by an 1899 effect by Ellis Stanyon called "Florin v. Penny". If you look at Victor's book his labeled moves G & H are the first phase of Stanyon's routine.

Now "Florin v. Penny" is a three-phase effect. The first is what is traditionally called Spellbound, then the coin switch is performed with the first reference to a tossing thumb-palm switch/vanish that Scarne, decades later, took credit for and finally the coin is vanished by the earliest mention of the Pocket Vanish. This vanish is the one that completes a lot of the "complete vanishes" in Bobo's.


The phrasing may be Chad's, but the thought process reads so much like the typical Townsend obscure historical musing that it surprises me anyone would think it's not coming straight from him. So unless Chad has either two distinctly different writing styles - or is secretly channeling J.T. without his knowledge - I have to believe it's a bit of a "group effort".

It actually makes me smile a little bit when I think about it, because it reminds of one of those scenes in cartoons where a character is pondering a situation and suddenly a little fairy pops up on his shoulder and whispers an idea into his ear. We are each free to think whatever we like, but it's my opinion that Chad has his own personal Tinkerbell flitting around his head and whispering in his ear - and that little Tinkerbell is J.T.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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